Prop 8

In light of the recent conversation over on the other thread, I thought ya'll would find this story heartwarming (I did):

A reader writes:

I voted here in San Francisco's Noe Valley neighborhood about two hours ago. It took about an hour to get through the line, and while standing there I was chatting with the 75-year-old retired cop in front of me, and the young 30-something gay couple in front of him, who had their two little girls in tow.

Everyone was in good spirits as the conversation moved from the Obama-McCain contest to the farce that is Sarah Palin, and then on to non-political matters, like the road work being done on the next block. The conversation between the cop and the couple started to get animated toward the end of our hour in line as the three men began to discuss the current football season, wagering bets for this weekend's games and making predictions for the Super Bowl.

And then, as we entered the firehouse that doubled as our polling place, as the couple and their daughters stepped out of line and up to the table to receive their ballots, I observed the cop in front of me. He opened his sample ballot, took out his pen, scribbled out his "yes" vote on Proposition 8, and filled in the ballot line for "no."

I don't think he knew that I observed him. And since it was such a private moment I held back my tears of joy and my overwhelming desire to pat him on the back and say "thank you, sir." Instead, I left the polling place muttering to myself those two words you have repeated over and over during this election cycle, Andrew:

KNOW.

HOPE.

From a reader in Sacramento of a political blog. (Andrew Sullivan's The Daily Dish)

Forums: 
Flak's picture

Beautiful. Now if only more people could be as reasonable, and not default to being unreasonable.

V's picture
Stormy's picture

Supplicant

though now I'm crying. My best friend is gay. He and his boyfriend own a nice home in a suburb of KC and hope to have a baby in the next couple of years. Hearing stories like this give me at least a little hope for the world that baby (and my son) will inherit.

It also makes me really appreciate my little no-line-having polling place.

Clare-Dragonfly's picture

Supplicant

That was a beautiful story.

MeiLin's picture

Most High

it looks like Prop 8 is going to pass.

TheBoy's picture

Embodiment

The data aren't too clear--CNN.com's saying it might could fail, too.

MeiLin's picture

Most High

Here's hoping.

Andrea's picture

Supplicant

I think we're moving in the right direction. We're not perfect, but we're getting better.

The bad: Amendment 2 passed here in Florida (banning gay marriage) and apparently Arkansas is trying to ban same-sex couples from adopting children. I really expected better of America - I had no idea that Amendment 2 had that much support.

On the other hand, the good: This discrimination is only happening at the state level. It's a heck of a lot more pervasive than I thought it was, but at least it's not at the national level. I'm ok with a few states temporarily having homophobic laws (NOT ok with it permanently) as long as they don't interfere with other states having other policies. There /is/ hope - Cali's Proposition 8 and Arizona's version of it look like they're not going to pass, and Barack Obama is President-Elect.

If America stopped discriminating in one way, it can stop discriminating in another.

Here's where I'm looking, in case anyone else is curious: http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2008/results/ballot.measures/

EDIT: Whoops, I didn't realize that some states only have to reach a >50% majority to pass amendments :(. I thought they all had to reach 60% like they do in Florida.

Ciega's picture

That is indeed an awesome story. And I am also thankful for the lack of lines at my polling place...

Andrea's picture

Supplicant

to reopen Proposition 8 and un-pass it. I don't really know how that works, but in case any CA residents are interested: http://www.petitiononline.com/mod_perl/signed.cgi?seg5130

Aaror's picture

Before anyone gets too bummed about Prop 8 passing, keep in mind the age demographics of the vote. Gen X and Y voted against it, the old folks voted for. As close as the vote was in 08, redo it in '10! You will have two years of dinosaurs dying of old age, and open minded youth gaining the right to vote. I know that if you want to get married this is a bummer, but 2 years is not that long...
(OK, maybe it is that long, but hope is precious, keep it alive.)

Nye's picture

Supplicant

I launched my webcomic a week early just so I could make a Prop 8-related statement in time for the election. We may have lost the battle on this one, but the war will continue. The state supreme court has already chosen three cases to hear on the topic, and there are later elections to plan for. The younger generations certainly do not support this, and as was already pointed out, eventually it will be revisited and overturned.

My webcomic is at www.primarychaos.net for those who may be interested.

SongCoyote's picture

Devotee

The passage of Prop 8 and related idiocies across the US earlier this month was a sad event. In spite of surging forward in some ways, many Americans remain locked into social mores and concepts that are rooted in fundamentalist propaganda rather than compassion and love for one's fellow persons. It's hard to let go of and hard to unlearn, and I can only hope such learning happens soon.

Peace be with you all, and love for all, even those with whom you may disagree.

Light and laughter,
SongCoyote

TheBoy's picture

Embodiment

http://carnalnation.com/node/4159

Liveblogging (from a sponsor-link) from the SC of CA's oral arguments on prop 8.

Tirael's picture

Being the cynical, cold-hearted bastard that i often am, i've more or less made it a point NOT to make it my business what goes on in the US politics-wise (Powers know there's enough problems in Denmark on that subject, no need being bothered with other countries political problems) save when it comes up in conversation, or has some interest to me. (Obama's election f.eks was bright point, then again, it could hardly get worse than Bush IMO)

Anyway, after reading this i went, read up on the subject, and well, as much as that story went to restore some tiny sliver of hope for the future of humanity, i can sadly not say i am surprised that the proposition was passed. Acording to statistics, far too large a part of America's population is influenced by the Christian religion, which unfortunately, for some reason, have decided to hate gay people somewhere within the last few centuries. I can only hope that as time passed, the medieval brainwash they call christianity (catholicism in particular) will filter out of society, and make way for a more open-minded population of people. The biological absurdity of marriage aside, it's peoples' own damn right and business who they want to be their family, and no one, preacher or government official, should have the right to tell them otherwise. I can only hope that enough opposition will gather against the continued existence of this piece of legal garbage that it will be abolished.

Who came up with this crap anyway?

Capriox's picture

Embodiment

Urk. As a pro-gay, pro-gay marriage Christian, member of a pro-gays&marriage Christian denomination, I object to the religious stereotyping in your remarks. Just because certain members of certain religions object to certain beliefs held by you, please don't condemn all of religion or something as diverse as the umbrella of 'Christianity' in return. Just saying. I don't like being vilified even if just by association, especially in a place as generally welcoming & open as this forum.

But back on topic: booooo to prop 8 passing. IMO, it's mostly a matter of time until homosexuality becomes politically acceptable. Still sucks for those who have to fight for equal opportunities right now =/

kawaiikune's picture

Embodiment

I think it's awesome that you are pro-gay and pro-gay marriage as a member of the Christian community, but when you look at something as organized as religion, it's hard not to point the finger at it. One of the biggest reasons why gay marriage is not legal is because of lobbyists that represent Christian organizations. Most people feel that the bible condemns homosexuality, and that at the very least it goes against what God intended. I think it's great that your denomination doesn't preach that, but I believe the vast majority of authorities in the Christian religion would oppose you and your denomination in the belief. Further, unless you are a Unitarian (which is questionably Christian, at best, by the traditional definition), I've never heard of a whole denomination that is pro-gay marriage. Pardon my ignorance if there is one I haven't heard of. There are some churches in a number of different denominations that are pro-gay marriage, but they are largely criticized by the authorities in their denomination as a whole. If it weren't for Christianity and all of the lobbyists that represent Christian organizations, I really think laws would have been passed by now legalizing gay marriage. I am sorry if, as a Christian, that is as frustrating for you as I can imagine it would be, and it's nice to see that some Christians support civil liberties and all, but I can't ignore the damage that the lobbyists that represent an enormous number of Christian denominations and organizations have done to the cause. Any comments I have about Christianity as a whole clearly do not apply to you and the people that attend and support your church. You guys sound awesome.

Capriox's picture

Embodiment

My denomination is United Church of Christ. They ran ads a couple years ago that specifically depicted homosexuals being welcomed into a church, because we do. It is incredibly frustrating to have my faith constantly being trashed become some denominations do actively campaign against homosexuality. That's why I took the opportunity to raise the point that not all Christian are anti-gay. I'd really prefer if people were more specific in their complaints (those darn Southern Baptists/evanglicalists/Mormons/etc) instead of lumping me and those like me in with a bigger stereotype. Christianity really is a huge umbrella. If I'm not supposed to lump all you "heathens" together in one big anti-Christian group, y'all could do the same for me Wink

To put in PC terms, just think of me as raising awareness of a minority group Blum 3

The Which's picture

Embodiment

My almost 2 yr old has never been to church. Even though I don't consider myself Christian, I think the experiences I had in church throughout my childhood were so *positive* toward my growth as a person I feel guilty not taking her to Sunday school. The whole "make your own religious choice" thing some parents talk about? Yeah, it doesn't do any good if you dont have any knowledge with which to make that choice.

Ive been considering going to a Unitarian church, but you just got me googling UCC churches in my area.

Capriox's picture

Embodiment

Oh my! Blush Well! A word to the wise - the UCC is more a national network of independent congregations than a hierarchical denomination. It's part of why I like it, but it also means that there is variation between the particular beliefs/preferences of the individual congregations. I hope you do find a good faith community nearby, regardless of whether or not it's UCC congregation.

And I agree on the raising children with *some* sort of form spiritual instruction and in a recognizable faith community. If nothing else, you can think of a little Sunday schooling as an innoculation against cults or other undesirable religious behavior when she does start going her own way. Or maybe something like a really awkward, bare-bones mechanics form of sex ed - it's still better than "just don't do it!".

A's picture

Postulant

I'm a member ot the United Church of Christ, as well. I wouldn't be there if they weren't inclusive.

In 2005, as a denomination, the UCC declared Equal Marriage Rights for All. It was not universally popular, many individual congregations dropped their UCC affiliation because of it and went independent, Presbyterian, or something.

And they've been championing gay rights since 1969. Also, the UCC has been ordaining openly gay men and women for years.

My particular congregation has performed same-sex marriages for couples even though they are not recognized by the state. Our congregation is Open and Affirming (ONA), Multicultural/Multiracial, Just Peace church. Open and Affirming means that LGBT persons are welcome in the full life and ministry of our church. Not all UCC churches are ONA, the UCC lets each congregation decide for themselves. But the denomination as a whole have made a stand for equality for all. A listing of ONA UCC churches can be found here.

My congregation is also a member of the Community of Welcoming Congregations, an interfaith advocacy organization for LGBT issues consisting of Buddist, Catholic, Protestant, Mormon, New Thought, Pagan, Quaker, and Unitarian congregations in a two state area.

As far as I know, the UCC is the only "mainline" church that has done this, however. If I am incorrect, I'd be happy to hear of it.

Tirael's picture

well, from a historical viewpoint it will only be a matter of time. Most civilizations have come to accept homosexuality eventually. A shining example would be the greeks, who at the height of their moral and philosophical advancements openly acepted, and in some cases even encouraged, bisexual and homosexual relationships.

As for my jab at christianity: It's not so much the fact that i object to certain beliefs, or they object to mine, as much as the fact as i condemn the entire notion of organized religion. In my oppinion, religion has done far more harm than good, and while i respect people's right to believe what they wish, that dosn't mean i have to agree with them, or even like it. Of course, religious people can still be decent and interesting. Just because you like someone dosn't mean you're going to like everything about them /shrug.

anyway, back on track: As has been previously stated, it's likely only a matter of time. Things like this seems to fluctuate, historically speaking, and we're probably going up into the "pro-gay" part of the curve.

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