Painful Self-Awareness: A Sad and Serious Sexual Issue

Seeing the most recent post about threesomes was difficult for me, because despite my efforts, I am extremely sensitive to anything having to do with threesomes in real life. I know I am not being asked to participate, but as an idealistic personality, after being introduced to the fact that many people fantasize about threesomes and that almost all men find them appealing, I felt extremely crushed because, from what I can figure out, I am inherently monogamous.

When my husband and I were still dating he briefly brought up his own threesome fantasy and I handled it very poorly. I won't try to recount every detail right away, but several things he said occasionally return to me. One of them was that he expressed disappointment in my aversion to his fantasy (extreme rejection of the idea that I, hypothetically, could ever do something like that) because he thought I was such a loving person. Imagining the idea actually put me in touch with the murderous side of my humanity, I am sorry to say. I could see what he was saying about how he expected me to react, but it turns out I am not a loving person when it comes to sharing sex with more than one person. He couldn't handle how much the conversation devastated me, and I have struggled off and on with this topic ever since.

Now that we are married he is very good about reassuring me, complimenting me, and offering me evidence of his loyalty and love. He maintains that he never wants to speak of threesomes again and we have had various conversations about cheating and other issues, none of which cause me any further grief or reason to worry. It is not, of course, a perfect relationship, but I would still say we are very happy currently.

So it is completely on my own that I persist in trying to understand this topic and my own aversion to it. I was proud of myself for reading about fictious encounters (such as those in ToMU) without any qualms and coming to terms with the fact that other people may participate in this kind of sexual behavior without any ill effects. I had no negative reactions to the party scene with Temmin, Allis, and Issak out in the garden. I was not alarmed at Neya, Nerr, and Temmin in the Temple. Then I read a post from another reader, and all of a sudden encountering the idea of a threesome is once again disturbing and physically painful to me (I get rare chest pains and tightening from strong emotion). There is no reason for the mere idea to be threatening to me, and I have come to the conclusion that having a threesome is NOT wrong, it can only be wrong for individuals (like me). I have only talked about it with a few people abstractly. The one couple I sought perspective from was very interesting. The husband offered the view that it was a largely cultural phenomenon, while the wife was even more hostile to the idea than I was. i felt better about myself, but no more understanding of my reactions, since by that point I was well on my journey of attempted desensitization. I must admit I am much less reactive than when i began this journey, but I find myself often perplexed and tormented when nonsensical nightmares somehow revolving around this topic effect my moods and composure, much less my trust in my mate and all men.

I long to have a balanced, realistic, and calm perspective of most things, but especially this. Why am I so unbalanced, irrational, and depressing when it comes to this of all things!? I do NOT want a harmless idea or reference to disrupt my life!

Forums: 
MeiLin's picture

Most High

...because I think it belongs there.

I may have more to say on this later but my first instinct is to tell you that just because people fantasize about something doesn't mean they want it to happen in real life. Threesomes appeal for several reasons, which include a) their "naughtiness," and b) their twice-as-much-of-something-ness for the opposite sex person. Or, alternate b), their one-of-each-ness for a bi-curious person who might be nervous about a one-on-one same sex encounter.

But just because they appeal doesn't mean a person wants to do them. More later.

GreenGlass's picture

Supplicant

Yes, absolutely. And although I can't relate, those reasons are just as valid as any other sexual desire. That doesn't seem to be my problem. Sad

I have come to terms with the idea that threesomes are valid, but the idea of threesomes still "hurts" me somehow. Even though I have no reason to take it personally!

Voyeur's picture

I don't think you really need a reason for not wanting to share your husband with another woman, and what you find arousing is unique to you. That being said, and at the risk of bringing up something even more uncomfortable than threesomes, have you thought about talking to a professional, like a therapist, about this? Your threesome issue might not seem like a big deal, but sometimes talking to someone who's objective and ready to listen can really help you sort things out in your head. The symptoms you describe seem a lot like anxiety attacks. A therapist could help you manage the symptoms and learn more about who you are and why you feel the way you do. While your dislike of threesomes is certainly not unique, your physical reaction is so strong there may be a non sexual reason for it. Personally, my anxiety is linked to my want to control my life. Maybe you're really uncomfortable with the loss of control in a threesome? maybe trust issues? only you can know for sure, but a therapist can help you sort it out. FYI: many health care plans cover therapy.

thingsthatmakenoise's picture

... this moved me.

I feel pretty similarly. I don't take issue with what other people do but the mention, even in jest, of my husband and I involved in a threesome can turn my mood around entirely to make me resentful and angry. I always thought I was just bizarre for getting so incredibly upset about it, but I guess I'm not alone.

Requiem's picture

What is it about the idea that bothers you? Is it a physical repulsion, do you not like the idea of your partner being with another person even if you're there?

Oddfish's picture

Postulant

I don't have a visceral, killing reaction to the idea, but I'm not a fan. I worry I won't measure up, or that I'll fail and be left alone. I worry about being a disappointment, possibly to the point that I'll be abandoned for being such an utter failure. I know everyone lacks something, I just have this fear that what I lack is more important than what someone else might. It's never come up seriously, and I'm quick enough to say just what I said here regarding a hypothetical situation, but it's not something I like thinking about. Fortunately, I can't say as I ever have much occasion to, so it's all good.

Requiem's picture

I can see that, though I've never really had doubts like that myself. I *know* I'm inadequate Blum 3

Slagar's picture

Devotee

So, I'm male, and pretty open sexually. Not completely so, but more so than most of my friends and acquaintances. A threesome is something I've kept on my "list" since I became sexually active, and is still there despite (or even because of) the stable relationship I'm in right now. On the other hand, I know of many people who are completely opposed to even the idea of a threesome. I've talked about this a few times, and done my best to figure out where they are coming from, even if I couldn't alter their opinion at all (not that I try to, usually; not usually my place).

What I've heard most often is that people see a threesome, specifically a couple inviting a third into bed, as taking what should be an act of devotion for one person by another, and turning it into a game, of sorts. They say that when a couple make love, it means something, and that to cheapen it that way is hurtful to both parties. It sounds like this is some part of what you feel. Unless I'm way off. That happens, sometimes.

I guess my response to this is, yes, it turns lovemaking into a game, of sorts. But, so what? One of the most beautiful things about sex is that it can mean whatever you want it to, even within a relationship. Sometimes I just want to play, and that's an option. Sometimes I'm feeling like a conquest, and I want to play rough. Sometimes I want to make love to my woman, and I can do that to. Sex doesn't have to be any one thing, all the time. Threesomes are just play (unless they're not, who's to say?), and there's really nothing wrong with that, assuming everyone involved is cool with it. I guess some people have a very solid, set notion of what sex should mean, and aren't OK with sex meaning "less" than it ought to. Perhaps the best advice I can offer is to open up a little, if you can, because it really can be a lot of fun, and that's the bottom line for me. Hope I helped, or at least made some small amount of sense.

Blue Coyote's picture

Devotee

I would like to offer advice and help, but first I want to tell you that I am in a triple- a three-person relationship, and we have been together as a triple for over seven years now. I'm not at all trying to convince you of the rightness or that you should just try it or anything like. I am very Very firmly of the opinion that what is right for an individual is what they want or desire, however much it may not be what I like or want myself at all. (Like big hairy mens, you can have em all! :sick: )
That you want understanding of yourself and your reactions is very good, so many people just react to something and take their reactions as just 'the way it is' or it must be 'natural' because they 'feel it'. Well I feel my love for my partners and it 'feels' wonderful and loving and perfectly natural to me. But I want to know what in Paticular makes you so uncomfortable? You say you trust him and that he does everything to reassure you. Is it a trust issue? Do you really trust him or do you secretly believe that he's only telling you what you want to hear. Do you think he's simply afraid after the last blow-up to say what he really thinks? Or is it really and truly not about him at all?
I noticed in your recounting of the confrontation about it was the statement about "extreme rejection of the idea that I, hypothetically, could ever do something like that". Which 'that' is that actually? Share your man with another woman? Or that he would be sharing you with another woman? Your acute physical reaction(and yes Anxiety Attacks are a real medical conditon, not just female hysteria, men get them as well) says to me that there is something really buried there. Are you too horrified to even admit the possability that you might be bi-sexual? Or even just curious?
You say it leads to a great distrust of all men, why? Why should the fantasies of other men bother you? Why should your husbands fantasies bother you? They are only fantasy, a yearning for what can't be had. I think that is why men fantasize about being with two women and are generally semi-obsessed with lesbains. The woman no man can have but him. It's sort of a modern virgin-fantasy I think. Do men bother you? Does men looking at you or saying anything even vaugely sexual make you angry or upset in the same way as the threesome thing?
Do you think if your husband pleases himself he is cheating on you or that you are somehow undesireable? How much of it do you suspect might be control issues? Do you have to be in charge of every situation or can you relax and 'go with the flow'?
I'm not trying to be any kind of rude here, I'm just asking questions for clarification. For myself and hopefully you as well. There is certainly nothing wrong or even unusual about being monogamus, most people are or think they should be. But there is also nothing wrong with being polygamus... as long as it is really for you and what you truly desire. To know oneself is the greatest peace there is, to be happy and comfortable in your own skin and your own life is the only real joy. And you don't sound happy. Having something that you know sets you off and being worried about hearing/encountering that something only feeds into the panic-cycle. Breathing excercises help a lot, but talking is the real cure. Find someone that you can talk to, dosen't have to be professional, just someone you can trust and who won't BS you.

MeiLin's picture

Most High

Just to be clear: There is absolutely nothing wrong with anyone who doesn't want to experiment this way. In my youth I was very experimental, but I was experimental with the wrong people and it was a disaster. It led to a lot of hurt and heartache, possibly not only for me; I was so self-centered and such a big mess I have no idea what everyone else was feeling.

So, no, people who don't want to do this don't need therapy. But people who flip out to the point that they go, "Wow, what the hell was that all about?" Those people might want to consider it--not so that they can get to the point where they can invite an unwanted third into their bed, but so that the idea of *some other bunch of people* doing that doesn't cause them undue agita.

I very much agree with the foxman: Sex is what you make of it.

Marri's picture

Supplicant

I've always been curious about threesomes, though usually in the same way as I've been curious about anything involving the same gender ("too scared for a one on one" pegged me pretty close). As far as therapy goes, though: no, of course not being turned on by a threesome doesn't mean you need therapy. If your distaste for them is causing nightmares and panic attacks, on the other hand, as it seems from your description- correct me if I'm wrong, of course- then therapy would probably be wise. I mean, pretend it's not a threesome. Pretend it's... I don't know, eating cotton candy that makes you so upset. No one will tell you you need therapy if you hate cotton candy, particularly if you're ok with other people eating cotton candy. But if you get physically ill whenever you think about cotton candy, it's worth exploring why.

That being said, self awareness is a royal pain to get through, and I offer lots of comfort and hugs in the meantime. Good luck figuring this out Smile

V's picture

Embodiment

First of all--it sounds to me that you're describing a condition serious enough (it can impact your daily life) that you could take it up with a therapist or a psychologist.

I am NOT a therapist or a psychologist. I'll probably ramble at length, but I have NO credentials, so use at your own risk.

First of all--it sounds like you might be more of a thinking than a feeling type, since this bugs you so much--but you definitely shouldn't be ashamed or embarrassed by your reaction--it's part of who you are. Your reaction is not "wrong". It probably even has a lot of evolutionary momentum behind it. We've been doing the largely monogamous, hunter-gatherer thing for a few millennia by now...the female reaction of "Mate may split his attention! Leave me! Bad provider, abandoned!!" runs pretty deep and is rather common--more prominent for some people than others...just like the "Hey, two chicks? Twice the potential offspring! And 4 boobs, yay!" is stuck in the guy's head. Don't slay yourself because the balanced, sophisticated individual today is supposed to favor one mindset over the other.

If you want to change your reaction--first, admit that it's real, and that it's natural. I'm largely rational, but I HAVE learned that you only rarely beat emotion with logic. Learn to work with it. "He's given me so much proof of his fidelity" won't cut it, but acknowledging that you DO feel that way, that your feelings are real, and as honest as any other you experience, might be the first step towards the decision to ignore them. Not suppress them--just "OK, I felt that. I think I know why. I'm being silly. Breathe" and then on with your life Smile

GreenGlass's picture

Supplicant

Wow, so many wonderful comments from people who want to be helpful! Thank you! There's a lot to address. I'll try to go down the list.

In my title I say serious as in "Warning: Depressing." I didn't mean it to sound quite so dire, hehehe.

To the first Voyeur: The psychological counseling available to me right now is not one that I think would be appropriate or even able to handle my sexual issues and anxieties.

Let me just say right now that I am a Pyshcology student getting my BS, so I am familiar with those ideas and I'm very greatful for the advise in that direction. It touches me that I WAS taken so seriously. I very much appreciate your opening sentence as well. As to my reasons, I'll be exploring those below.

To ThingsthatMakeNoise: I am so thankful for your response. I had pretty much thought that this kind of understanding and agreement wasn't something I'd get a lot of here, because so many seem to be much more knowledgable, enlightened, or experienced than I consider myself. I still don't want to have what borders on anxiety attacks, but really it is very soothing to my mind to remember the people who feel the same way I do. No, I guess we're not alone. Smile

To the mid-comment by Requiem: Yes, the idea of my husband being with anyone else is heartbreaking.

To Oddfish: I really appreciated your different perspective. When I try to apply it to myself, I come up with very mixed reactions. On the one hand, I have some confidence that I could... well... do very well at it if the purpose was to make my husband happy. I'm a good acctress, if I could do it I might be very good... sexy. Bleh. On the other hand if I did somehow fail? For me that goes into the whole area of making it too real for me to handle. I don't think I would physically fail something like that. I think I would emotionally fail, sabotage it, go insane... Not pleasant speculation. But I was still touched by your honesty.

To Slagar: You said a lot of good things and I was able to handle your comment without any anger or annoyance. I most appreciate your effort to understand where other people are coming from (as long as it isn’t for the purpose of fixing their perspective or fears somehow). You aren’t way off about the act of devotion part. I’ve never heard a threesome referenced as merely play, but hearing that helped me understand one of the ways someone may experience it as a good thing. The only thing is that for me, it’s this and probably a lot more. Your third paragraph was the boldest. I very much agree that we have great power over what we decide sex means, and I resonated with your comments on how sex can be so many different things. But what you need to understand is that while threesomes can be just play to you, they could never (in my limited understanding) be just play to me. At best it would be a fake act for me and at worst it would be a hellish trauma. Trying to convince me to adopt your definition belittles what that would actually mean for me. Sex is a lot of things to me, but for me personally, yes, I am very “set” about one thing. My sex is between two people. I can’t find a way to ever change that without... I think unless I changed beyond recognition, I would have to really mess up a part of myself. Fun may be the bottom line for you. Identity is the bottom line for me. You made a lot of sense. But although opening up is a good thing, like being loving, in this context it happens to be a very bad thing for me.

Since I have the feeling these responses are going to be ridiculously long, I’m going to post this and then continue.

Slagar's picture

Devotee

That's a very thorough, and probably accurate, self-assesment. I wasn't trying to convince anyone of anything, in this case. Sex means different things for different people, and you are different from me. My point was that it's OK for sex to be play sometimes, for me, but that it's also OK for it to be an act of love and devotion for you. Me sitting here saying you need to see sex the way I do wouldn't be any better than you condemning me for my perspective. I was only trying to offer a little of my perspective, to try to help you gain some understanding. Many of the people I've spoken to on the subject won't ever be OK with the idea of threesomes, it just doesn't fit in their world-view, and that's fine for them. Since you seem to be willing, or even trying, to understand why it is OK for others, I thought I'd throw my thoughts out there. Not trying to convince you, just attempting to shed a little light on the subject. Sorry if I came off otherwise.

SongCoyote's picture

Devotee

To each that which they adore; to all who desire happiness, that which makes them happy.

I am in a long-term group family (MFFF) that basically consists of two pairs who share around. This has included threesomes at times... and such things have been acts of devotion, delightful play, and occasionally scary and problematic for those involved, depending on mood, how well they're handled, past experiences, time of the month, availability of alternate forms of entertainment... the list goes on.

To build on what others have said: in the end all that matters is that you find out what works for you. If you are distraught over the extent or manifestation of your negative reaction that might be something to be concerned about, as there may be some important triggers in you that would be good to defuse for broader reasons. However, as a baseline: if it doesn't sound fun, you don't have to do it. That goes for anything sexual... heck, it goes for quite a few things in life.

I completely support everyone's right to indulge in whatever form of consensual play they wish to. I also support anyone's right to say, "No, I don't want to do that - sorry," and I posit that it is the asker's responsibility not to push or coerce or threaten or otherwise do anything but accept the answer. Sure, wait a while - QUITE a while, in some cases - and perhaps bring it up in an entirely friendly and non-pushy way - assuming the first answer didn't involve the level of response you describe in yourself for threesomes - since tastes can change. But if anyone does get a response like yours, MeiLin, they should respect it utterly and immediately. Perhaps they might also want to help find out why such a strong reaction, but that's the extent of it.

Anyway, I've babbled enough. I've got quite a bit of experience dealing with challenging partner-related issues (as do my sweeties) so if you'd like to e-mail me about anything please do so.

In the mean time, act with compassion for yourself and your mate, and seek love always.

Light and laughter,
SongCoyote

Velvetackbar's picture

Most High

Get thee to a shrink.

Now.

No, no, no. Not cuz you don't like threesomes...Big deal! I don't much care for 'em myself--I feel like they divide my attention more than I am comfortable with.

The physical reaction you describe is irrational. Very much so. You shouldn't be having chest pains over a *concept.*

If you were having the same reaction to bikeriding or opera, you would certainly be told to see a psychiatrist. Unless you are being asked to participate in the opera, or bikeriding, or a threesome, this reaction betrays something else going on below the surface.

GreenGlass's picture

Supplicant

To Blue Coyote: I really liked your sentence about believing in what is right for the individual. That being said, I was expecting a lot of questions by writing this post. Also, because I’ve worked with myself in this area for so long, I’m finding I can indeed handle them, when before I don’t think I could have. You don’t have to take my return advice, but please, if it is anyone else struggling with this topic, consider being gentler. There is nothing wrong with being blunt, asking questions is often very helpful, and so on, but you warn me of your position, and I’m glad you did. Your questions have a sort of tone or perspective to them; that you need to figure out what’s wrong with me. You let your speculations wander freely, but if I really was deathly afraid of being bi-sexual for instance, I don’t think I would have answered you. I probably would have hated you for reminding me of a subconscious reality so harshly. Maybe. Maybe not. I’m just glad I decided to do this at a strong time rather than a weak one.

To answer your questions: This post has been doing what I hoped. It’s been making me examine this issue more completely. Yes, I have actually been telling myself that my reaction is natural, to preserve my self-esteem, but no, it doesn’t help. Yes, there probably is a trust issue involved, but I somehow assume that would be a tangent at this point. I trust him more than I have before in our relationship. This is definitely an issue I hope to get professional help on, but I think or relationship in that area goes far beyond the scope of this post. So I can only keep in mind that that is some part of my reaction. My perspective on the question line following “Is it a trust issue?” is somewhat different than your direction. I believe he is telling me the truth because he abhors lying. I know that he doesn’t tell me some things because he doesn’t want to hurt me. But what really bothers me is the knowledge that this is a real fantasy, some part of him, no matter how small or hidden or suppressed, or whatever, has a threesome fantasy. And although he tells me he will never act on it (and I believe him), that reality is something I found and sometimes find very hard to come to terms with. It’s that idealist personality I was talking about. I didn’t know how different my ideal image was until reality showed me how it was different. I didn’t know that I wanted to somehow be the ultimate sexual satisfaction of his life. I didn’t know that him having fantasies I couldn’t fulfill would be so painful, so awful. But it was. And it is. And that’s part of what I am a lot more aware of then I had to be before. And although I recognize how unrealistic those images of love were, I must also recognize that they were real, they were mine.

“That” is ‘watch, much less participate in, my mate sexually touch another woman (or man) in any way.’ It is a very possessive “that.” I even have issues with some non-sexual touch. Thank the gods I have never been very tested in this area, but I am shamefully aware that even non-sexual touch has the potential to bring out homicidal tendencies in me (which I of course despise and would never act on). If anything can put me in touch with my sadistic side it is that; otherwise I have a very difficult time evoking it. I hate to see people hurt. I immaturely picked up on the concept that girl on girl action was somehow hot to men, and tried to implement it in my younger college years. As long as we had our clothes on, as an affectionate person, I enjoyed the pretend sexual advances and even touches that are freely exchanged in social college settings. I had a very positive view of my future sexual experiences, a positive view of sex, and a desire to please and be noticed by guys. But although that caused several people to assume I was bisexual, I could not, in the end, agree with them. I could imagine being attracted to women to a point, the point ending at their pussy. Even friends I loved dearly could never have enticed me to experiment. It was a mild turn off. I knew I was attracted to a penis and not a pussy, but there’s no telling some people that. Whatever you chose to think, I at least, am certain I am not bi-sexual. I am bi-appreciative. But again, it isn’t my identity.

Your next line of questions skips back to things I have already said. I am somewhat convinced that all men are attracted by this. As unfair as it is to men, I am therefore very bitter about the fact that there is therefore no man who can satisfy a woman’s desire for complete devotion. There is that part that fantasizes. Men at least have a chance of finding a woman who understands their appetites and can fulfill them with multiple partners, or whatever else. What of the women who fantasize about one undyingly loyal partner? Apparently that is a dream that can never be met. And I resent it. I resent it for myself and for others. Of course everything I have just said is entirely irrational and unfair, but there you have it. I am, when you come down to it, very bitter, and I have a hard time shaping up, even knowing better. The good news is, after much soul searching and the natural passage of time, I HAVE become aware that I am capable of attraction to other men besides my current lover. I don’t care if you don’t believe me; I honestly used to be blind to the attractiveness of other men if I was in a serious relationship. Because this undying loyalty came so easily to me, it used to hurt that it was not returned naturally. Now I am happy to say that I can acknowledge this side of myself without any threat to my identity. Yes, some fantasies are just fantasies. Unfortunately, men do bother me right now, probably through displaced frustration with my husband. I do not trust any of them to have strong sexual self-control and I have to resist the opinions of my mother and grandmother (that men are pigs). I don’t want to hate men! I never hated men before. I loved boys, and later men. A little boy-crazy, I’d say. But now that I know great love, I am also coming to terms with great hate. It is something foreign to me, and yet human. So I attempt to embrace the experience, reject the bias, and function as a kind and fair human being. That’s the best I can do. When other men look at me, I feel uncomfortable, but not quite violated. I don’t like it, but what can I do. If any man does anything inappropriate, anything I consider flirting (trying to caress me or tickle me), I CAN do something, and always do. It comes out too loud, but I always make it clear that the actions are unwanted, inappropriate, and will not be tolerated. I can turn very cold. But I do not get upset as with the threesome idea. Those things have no power over me. I can still freely hug other men and see my husband hug other women. But I have no problems being assertive about unwanted flirting either.

My husband pleasing himself is absolutely not cheating on me. It most likely means that I am simply not around, although there are other reasons. Occasionally when we have sex and he has a hard time cumming, I am tempted to think that I am somehow undesirable to him. But I am learning to dismiss that thought as the nonsense it is. I’m not good at taking charge. I want him to do it and do it well, but when the occasion calls for it, I can take a dominant roll for a tryst.

And here comes an important facet! One that makes sense of something I said earlier! How great! I’m a submissive! Not at all a masochist, but I have a great need to please people! Oh, this is clicking now! What hurts me most about threesomes is partially the horrible inner dissonance I experience at knowing something I could do to please my husband that I will never be able to do because it would be so harmful to me! Of course. I’ve been struggling with this partially because it hurts me so much that he would think I would be perfect enough to lovingly open my arms and bed to some other woman, and it turns out that is something I will not and cannot do. It hurts. It does make me fear that I won’t be able to please him. But he married me anyway and I have so far, so I really should come to terms with it. I’m crying now, but hopeful. I really do wish to please, but I also want to value myself and my own needs. I have issues with being selfish with sex, even though, of course I am a selfish human who wants her own pleasure, just like anyone. Well, what can we make of this?

No, I have not been happy. I have been tormenting myself, or having very uncomfortable moody spells in response to anything that set off these sorts of lines of thought. I do know how to calm myself down. My mother has significant anxiety issues that I have always struggled to avoid (with considerable success, despite my conscientious personality). I don’t want to let fear rule my life. But wanting to please my husband... that has a tendency to take over somewhat. It’s nothing I can’t cope with, though.

Now... how can I break the connection of threesomes as being some sort of personal failure of mine? It makes sense that they should still be threatening to me if I think that I shouldn’t be who I am somehow.

To V: Thank you for the comfort, it was one of my favorite responses. I am actually a feeling type, influenced very heavily by the thinkers in my life, one of which is my beloved husband. I both think and feel in abundance, and I am usually grateful for this. I have often thought about the evolutionary standpoint to my reaction, but no, it did not make me feel any better because that only fueled my subconscious desire to conquer whatever undesirable instincts I have (such as feeling murderous).

In answering these comments I have tried to be real, tried to remind myself that my reactions are somewhat natural, and very much appreciated your encouragement. I hope I can attain just the outcome you suggest.

Breathe. Go on with my life.

Should I mention at this point that my husband is a sensitive person, and so has not been someone I could talk to about this since the incident? So for a while, I really didn’t have closure to what I considered a life-altering event. Wow this is long...

Blue Coyote's picture

Devotee

Errg... internet is so bad at conveying tone. First let me appologise for coming off rude or blunt, I was sort of stream-of-consiousness writing my thoughts and questions and responses, I really should have reread before posting. I also tend to view problems as puzzles to be solved and I went right into fix-it mode.
Everyone is entilted to their own feelings and thoughts, they are things that are truly and utterly yours and no one elses. They belong to you and you own them, but they should not own you. This is what I am seeing as what might be termed "the problem", now what the "root" might be is what we're really trying to get to here, but it is impotant to name and recognise all the parts of the situation. I do truly believe you when you say you are secure in your sexuality, and having given your history to me I know now that you are because you have tried to be sure. A kiss is trying, you can just stick a toe in the water and decide it's too cold without having to jump in and get soaked to find it out.
I've reread your comment several times and several things keep popping up- you have realised what "the root" is but then keep on going about how you don't know. You have a very idealised image of what True Love must be, not just should but must. And a mere human can't really measure up to it, not really. And I think if you really think about it another way, from another viewpoint might give you some insight here. Now, I want you take your reaction to "threesome" and replace it with "flying". You are upset and hurt because your husband told you he fantasies about being able to fly. He dreams about being ably to just run and spread his arms and take off into the air and soar around. But you know he can't ever and there's nothing that can be done about it. Does that mean he has to stop his fantasy? What is the harm of thinking about something that won't happen? Maybe he is actually afraid of heights and the flying fantasy helps him overcome it. Maybe he just enjoys imagining what that kind of freedom might bring. But all you can see is that he wants to leave you behind while he's off enjoying himself.
I'm not sure I want to touch to much on the man-hating. I had... some very traumatising things happen to me when I was younger. I had unbeleivable ammounts of anger, fear, and resentment towards men that were to me not irrational at all but completely and verifiably true. It has taken many years and deep ammounts of soul-searching and talking with others to come to any kind of peace at all. But I have even come so far now as to have a male lover and to be able to be pleased by him. But I could never have done it without her, she has been my rock and my ground. I could never have taken that last step if she hadn't been there to literally hold my hand the whole time. ANd to explain to dear sweet him when I curled up hysterical and unable to speak that he hadn't done anything wrong. I threesom can be a wonderful and healing experiance for someone who's been deeply wounded in the past. I understand trust issues in a way that few can, and abandonment issues as well. I was also placed for adoption when I was born, my adopted parents rejected me as a teen when they found out I was lesbian. My found family is all I really have and I love them both with all my heart and soul. It may sound strange to say that you can give all of yourself to two. But ask any parent if they love the second child less than the first, or if they had to start loving the first one less so that there was some exra love for the new baby. Love is not quantifiable in that way. The heart grows and swells to encompass that new love. I am not telling you this to try and convince you to have a treesome. I am telling you this so that you might understand that this can be someone's life, not just a fantasy. It can be love and trust and respect, not just a passionate thrill. This is my life, it has been my life for seven years. And things have been hard, thing are often hard because I make them hard on myself. No one could be more critical of me than myself, and no one is ever as hard on me as I am to myself. I have an online gallery of my artwork that is pages and pages of thumbnails, but it isn't even of fraction of what I've actually done, and I consider it barely presentable enough to let anyone see.
Since you were brave enough to open up I'd thought I ought to as well. And I hope that having a human to put in place of this awful idea might make it more processable.

GreenGlass's picture

Supplicant

You're right, I do think that your story will go a long way to helping me change my reaction to threesome topics in the future. It is also somewhat idealistic and beautiful, the way you describe it, although you are being very realistic. Thank you! I am honored.

It's funny, I have tried stating the problem throughout, but I don't know if it got read. To restate it: I have a handful of negative reactions left that I am struggling with; while I can understand them logically all I want, they still bother me a great deal emotionally. I don't think I have a good idea of what true love is for other people, but yes, I do now have a good understanding of what I expected "True Love" must be for me. I am mostly assuming at this point that I just need to continue desensitizing myself and let time pass and then see what troublesome roots remain.

I am trying to come to terms with all the times people have been concerned, and used the example of other harmless events or objects to stress why my reactions were so serious. I agree, and yet I am beginning to question the wisdom of this. Yes, it is good to see if a reaction would be acceptable if placed in a different context, but I already assumed that my reactions were less than desirable. The key point to me is that I am NOT having these reactions to flying fantasies, or cotton candy, or anything else. I am having these reactions in response to a sexual topic and relational issues. I don't think anyone here would understate the value and power of sex and relationships. What exactly am I supossed to be convinced of?

V's picture

Embodiment

If you were looking to just unload to some people, well, we're here to listen Smile If you're looking for other perspectives on threesomes, you've gotten that. If you're looking for acknowledgment that it can be tough to beat emotion with logic...yup, agreed. If you hope we have a magic bullet for beating that...not so much. At the very least, I think we've given you plenty to think about.

A little tangent about your bitterness re. no man satisfying a woman's desire for complete devotion: This highlights the problem between inclusive and exclusive arrangements. The former can coexist with others, but the latter cannot. If you want a relationship where both partners are treated as respected equals, but I want one where I am in total control all the time...you can be happy in a variety of situations, but none of them will overlap with mine. Your wish is inclusive, mine exclusive. If I think the world is a mess, and I just need to...rule it, you can be all for that if all you want is a new order, putting the power into...different...hands (Dr. Horrible applied to RL). My exclusive situation coexists with your more inclusive one.

Tying complete fidelity to complete loyalty and complete devotion makes all of them an exclusive arrangement...if you don't get all, you get nothing. That doesn't address whether it's the correct course of action--but it does explain why it's tougher to achieve.

And for the record, I think you're wrong if you generalize it to the point where "a woman's" desire is always for total fidelity, but all men desire variety. There's trends but it's definitely not a general rule in either direction.

GreenGlass's picture

Supplicant

That is interesting. Thank you for the perspective on different desires. I'm not sure I understand your definitions of fidelity, loyalty, and devotion though.

I don't want to generalize, I'm pretty sure I said that think of those feelings as ridiculous. Smile

I would agree with you. I've gotten what I came here for!

V's picture

Embodiment

"I'm not sure I understand your definitions of fidelity, loyalty, and devotion though."

Everyone defines those words a little differently, and that's what I was trying to point out. I was defining fidelity to mean "intimate contact with only one person" whereas the other two were "everything you have left after subtracting fidelity from love".

Some wife probably feels she still has complete loyalty and devotion from her husband if he's banging her best friend (at her orders) while she sits on her face. That wife probably isn't you. Sorry, here's the brain bleach.

In your world view those three words may be synonyms, but they aren't to everyone...and one of the consequences of making them synonyms is the focus of this thread.

GreenGlass's picture

Supplicant

Interesting. ^_^ I just go by dictionary! They are still different words to me. But thanks!

TheBugKing's picture

Petitioner

Put another way and from a coldly logical stand point (definitions from Dictionary.com)

Loyalty:

1. faithful to one's sovereign, government, or state: a loyal subject.
2. faithful to one's oath, commitments, or obligations: to be loyal to a vow.
3. faithful to any leader, party, or cause, or to any person or thing conceived as deserving fidelity: a loyal friend.
4. characterized by or showing faithfulness to commitments, vows, allegiance, obligations, etc.: loyal conduct.

I think definition 2 is what we are working with here. Adhering to your vows seems very apropos for how you feel. You have effectively vowed to be monogamous with your partner.
If someone else’s vows included threesome activities then they would also be completely loyal by definition.

Fidelity:

1. strict observance of promises, duties, etc.: a servant's fidelity.
2. loyalty: fidelity to one's country.
3. conjugal faithfulness.
4. adherence to fact or detail.
5. accuracy; exactness: The speech was transcribed with great fidelity.
6. Audio, Video. the degree of accuracy with which sound or images are recorded or reproduced.

Here definition 3 seems to be how you are using the word. However the phrase "conjugal faithfulness" parses as being loyal to your marital vows or loyal to your marital status. This brings us back to how a couple's vows or marital definition could differ from yours.

Devotion:

1. profound dedication; consecration.
2. earnest attachment to a cause, person, etc.
3. an assignment or appropriation to any purpose, cause, etc.: the devotion of one's wealth and time to scientific advancement.
4. Often, devotions. Ecclesiastical. religious observance or worship; a form of prayer or worship for special use

Here, both definition 1 and 2 can apply. You are clearly earnestly attached to your partner. It could easily be said that your are profoundly dedicated to your partner as well. However no where in any of these definitions is there any mention of monogamy as part of the base definition. If you personally included monogamy in your marital vows and it was understood as being part of the basis of your relationship then by that definition you must be monogamous to exhibit Fidelity, be Faithful and Devoted.

Others here have clearly shown that the basis of their relationships are not constrained by monogamy. They can still easily fulfill all three word definitions in regards to their relationships.

The point I am trying to make is that we as humans can be very constrained by what we think words mean. Understanding the root of the words and the exact meanings that we are looking for helps get the exact idea, fear, joy across with a minimal cause of confusion. I think that you are looking for a monogamous relationship. That's it.

What V was trying to say (I think) is that your definitions have become so comingled that you feel you need someone who is monogamous, but also is exclusively loyal and exhibits exclusive fidelity to you. If the person is not all three of things to you then he is in actuality none. I don't think any one can be exclusive with their loyalties or exhibit exclusive fidelity with one person. We are social creatures by nature and we portion out our loyalties and adherences to causes.

I think that exclusives simply don't exist in relationships. I am completely monogamous. I do, however, have thoughts about not being so. I know for a fact that my wife is exactly the same way. Neither of us find it threatening and have turned it into something of a game where she points out eye candy for me and I do the same for her. If we were to be exclusive, such a thing could not exist. Since it is against basic human nature to behave in such a fashion it would put unnecessary stress on our relationship to attempt exclusivity and ultimately we would fail.

GreenGlass's picture

Supplicant

I am very surprised that this has remained active so long! I am really not sure how to answer this, but as it is still friendly, I will attempt a brief answer.

Whatever point you are each trying to make about language, I think I’ve been agreeing with you both throughout, even if I was not clear enough about it. I first admitted I didn’t know a personal definition of some words, which I then learned. Yes, language is very much subjective, even dictionary definitions. And we give our own definitions a lot of power, even though we still try to communicate with the same words. Since you already made a guess as to my definitions before your following comments, I am going to assume the following comments are the important parts.

All I can reply is that I don't think I am an all or none person. Believing in monogamy (fidelity) does not mean I cannot appreciate devotion and/or loyalty. I think I can, and I do. We don’t feel that we are “constrained.” We enjoy a lot about our relationship, and I just need to let go of my fears and let myself believe it.

All this about exclusivity... I am pretty sure that in reality, when we make a choice, it excludes other choices, meaning taking an opportunity effectively rejects other opportunities. We only have so much time and energy. Reality is exclusive AND inclusive!

You may have also been confusing my desire for many different things as dissatisfaction at not having gotten all those things (which would be terrible for me to do to my husband or my husband to do to me), and confusing what is exclusive with what is mutually exclusive.

If monogamy is truly no better than polygamy for some people, then shouldn’t polygamy be no better than monogamy for some others? I have not felt as if that were the assumption in many of these posts. But I think... for us, it is.

Smile

GreenGlass's picture

Supplicant

Yes, it's extreme. Yes, I don't like having it. But it is usually rare, not a problem, or else something I sort of think is a unique way of measuring the depth of my feelings on something. I can understand that some would be worried about this the most. I find emotions of the same level of severity to be just as important.

MeiLin's picture

Most High

And I totally understand the submissive thing. TOTALLY. After all these years it's easier for me to catch myself and keep from doing things that I really REALLY don't want to do, just because Sir asks me to, but I still have the expectation that I should do it. Does that make any sense? Blum 3

Biryl's picture

I think the first important thing to remember and that you seem to not fully recognize is this:

Fantasy does not always mean that someone actually wants something to occur in reality. Fantasies are generated by a plethora of things and are often subconscious in creation. We might not know about our own fantasies until our mind engages in them. Some fantasies are culturally taught (and a threesome could be one of those for your husband given the perpetuation of the myth in American culture that all men want a threesome, a stereotype even you admit to believing). Other fantasies are biochemical reactions to environmental stimuli and hormones (the majority of mammalian species are not monogamous).

There could be a lot of reasons why your husband fantasized about this and it could absolutely be a fantasy that he did not want to actually occur. My partner has certainly fantasized about it but does not want it to occur in real life. Many individuals have rape fantasies or fantasies that include extreme violence or violation. Just because they have these fantasies does not mean they want the reality to occur.

I think that is, perhaps, the most important thing for you to remember. A fantasy does not mean that your husband ACTUALLY wants a threesome. In fact, it sounds like he DOESN'T want a threesome. He just fantasize(s/d) about it. This means that you likely ARE NOT failing to please your husband.

I think his reaction to your reaction about the threesome could be very indicative. It sounds like he may have felt rejected or judged and hurt by your strong negative reaction to his fantasy. Discussing our own desires is often where we make ourselves or feel ourselves to be the most vulnerable. His reaction further compounded your own negative feelings about the situation by making you feel guilty and it probably exacerbated the situation so that he felt rejected and you felt the fantasy was more important to him than it was and that you were unable to perform.

I think it is key for you to understand this because I think it will really help the situation.

I also think that it is key that you communicate with your partner on this subject and others relating to desire. You've said several things on trust and one that stuck out to me was that you know your partner does not tell you things because he doesn't want to hurt you. That situation breeds distrust whereas open communication breeds trust. It seems like (and I suspect this is true) that the threesome discussion you two had created a rift in your relationship communication. If so, it seems you realize it and take all the blame upon yourself. This could explain in part your strong negative reaction to the topic. (Your previous strong reaction can be explained in terms of possession, fear of loss, misunderstanding, poor handling of the conversation on both parts and a variety of other things with, of course, fear of a myriad of things at its core. Fear often manifests itself in very odd ways.)

I suspect part of you realizes that this conversation had a negative impact on your relationship with your partner and that you really want to fix things. That's why his comments continue to reverberate in your mind and why you continue to have such poor reactions to the topic.

I would suggest that if you are unable or uncomfortable discussing the topic with him face to face, then you do so in writing. It can be a wonderful way to communicate with a partner about issues that make each of you uncomfortable and make you react poorly. A written communication can be expunged and then double checked for hurtful language prior to delivery whereas a conversation cannot. You could even suggest he come read this very post to see your perspective.

Open that line of communication, about this and about all his fantasies and about ANYTHING you have a desire or feel the need to know. Yes, the truth can hurt you, but the not-knowing tends to hurt more often and longer. Honesty can help it so you are not worrying about what is not being said, so that you learn to better understand him and yourself and so that you feel you can trust him more.

Given your comments on your desire to please your partner, I have some other advice. There are ways, as well, to indulge in a threesome fantasy without HAVING a threesome. Interestingly enough, my partner's threesome fantasies predominantly feature myself, my partner, and a twin copy of me with perhaps changes in hair or eye color. Ways to indulge in the fantasy may be telling your partner to imagine specific things a nebulous other woman could be doing to him (or to you) while you are engaged in certain activities. You could write sexy stories for him or find threesome stories and have him read them and then act out certain parts of them. You could use toys as the "third" individual. In each of these situations, you indulge in the fantasy, satisfy your partner, and maintain your monogamy.

Reading your comments, I really think you have a strong fear (that does not even need to be rational!) of losing your partner and so you tend to react strongly to anything you perceive as a threat. I think your discussion of this topic goes a long way towards facing that fear and making it more manageable and I applaud you for doing this.

I leave you with one final suggestion for dealing with your own strong reactions to things. Its a technique encouraged in self defense classes. What you do is you imagine yourself in the situations that cause you to react strongly (in this case perhaps talking to your husband about a threesome or having someone propose a threesome to you) and you go through that scenario over and over again. You work through the emotions and take control of the situation, leading it into an ending that is desirable for you in which you triumph or feel no longer threatened or powerless. You lead it to a positive outcome. You repeat the scenario in different fashions. Each time you do it, you will help yourself learn to not have a reaction that is so powerful that you cannot win because your reaction overpowers you. It helps you master your fears in order to cope with the problem at hand in a better manner.

Anyway, I hope my advice helps. I can really understand your perspective and your fears, given that I have tackled similar fears myself in the past. Above all I recommend talking to your partner.

Sincerely,
B

GreenGlass's picture

Supplicant

Smile Thank you for the advice.

Biryl's picture

You are most welcome. I hope it helps in some fashion!

Rinn's picture

You said he only mentioned this fantasy once. Are you sure he actually thinks about it a lot? Are you sure it wasn't just an idle thought that comes in his head sometimes, or even something he said because he thought it's what you expected?

Honestly, if I was in your situation and feeling what you're feeling, my first impulse would be to talk to my partner about it. Whether or not you want to open up to him this deeply, for whatever reason, if there's something wrong, if there are these disappointed and bitter and confused feelings knocking around in your head, it's going to affect him anyway whether you want it to or not. In my experience in an open relationship -- during which time I was once bothered to the point of screaming by how my partner was acting towards a bed-friend of his -- talking about it with him lets you vent and make peace with irrational feelings that you feel like you shouldn't have. It also lets him reassure you that these feelings are groundless. And it lets you reassure him that you're okay and you love him and everything, since chances are he's noticed something off about you if you've been thinking about this a lot. .... use your own judgment about how to bring it up, though, obviously.

If you want another viewpoint on wholesome fun threesomes, by the way (and if you don't just skip this paragraph) I will note that there are numerous permutations of even your standard MFF threesome. You seem to be thinking only about the kind where both ladies are, ah, paying attention to the male for his sole enjoyment, and as someone who likes threesomes I find that pretty distasteful myself. What I've taken part in once or twice is the kind where my partner and I team up on a mutual female interest and, er, pay her some attention until she gasps out that she's done. While I *could* get upset over him paying attention to some other girl when I'm there, I know for a fact that he enjoys doing this sort of thing *with me*, for the same reason he likes playing video games or cooking with me -- it's a shared interest. So instead I find it a warm and bonding experience. There's another, also very pleasant, permutation where each of the three participants are sandwiched in turn. (I will also note that having two people paying gleeful sexual attention to you is incredibly overwhelming, if your personal psychology allows you to enjoy it.)

While I'm sure you were aware of these if you've been reading about and trying to understand threesomes, the only kind you've mentioned in your posts is the first one, and in all your ranting it becomes kind of implicit that when you say "threesome" what you mean is that first kind of threesome.

Good luck in figuring out your emotional trainwreck. Even with everything you've said you seem to have a much healthier and more open attitude about threesomes than most people do.

GreenGlass's picture

Supplicant

Again, thank you for the advice. I don't think he thinks about this a lot anymore at all, and whenever I bring up anything related to my efforts, he becomes exasperated with me. I'm not the one who won't talk about it. I have let him reassure me, but he gets tired of it if I push for something like this, because he theoretically believes he needs none himself and begins to think I'm being too pushy if I don't respect his limitations.

I hate to say this, (I did not skip the paragraph Lol but I have not looked too closely at the variations on threesomes because they really don't matter to me. I am against the idea because it includes anyone outside of my lover and myself in a sexual situation. I thought his loyalty was a natural thing to expect, and I thought I was clear about those expectations and preferences, one of the reasons why he never wants to bring up threesomes around me again. Although I have never had to say it (and he might be very annoyed at having to hear it), I don't care if he is the one receiving pleasure, if I am, if it is someone else, or if we all were receiving something (which is actually the ideal I was assuming). I cannot pleasure another person besides my husband because of my conscience, and having any other person please me is repulsive. Having my husband pleased by someone else is... well it's all wrong, and having him please someone else is a terrible thought to me. So I'm sorry that I haven't paid much attention, but I don't care about those variations. They are all equally unacceptable to me personally.

He does not become so easily frustrated and inflexible with any other one topic. It is only on this that he is firm in setting a boundary of no discussion. On most everything else, we have come to a very open communication style and come to terms with many of the feelings various topics bring up.

Biryl's picture

I wonder if this is because of how badly it seems your initial discussion was. I would recommend you write him some form of letter and say something along the lines of how much you love him, and how you had these feelings about threesomes and you hate how it caused you to react and how it has caused you to react. Perhaps apologize to him if this frustrates or exasperates him but explain that it is an issue that you feel you need to conquer for yourself and for your relationship. Then, I would recommend you apologize to him for your negative reaction to his mention of the fantasy. (You might specifically want to say that you're sorry if your reaction caused him to feel rejected or hurt him.) Then explain some of the reactions and feelings you have had and some of the ways you are trying to work through the issue as well as any breakthroughs you feel you have made. Finally, I'd ask him for his support in these pursuits. You can tell him that you understand if he doesn't want to discuss with you the topic, but if he could respond to you in a letter back or something with his thoughts on the issues OR his thoughts on your progress and your thought process. I believe his feedback is incredibly important because he is likely the person who knows you best and will be able to identify ways in which you can help yourself in this. Ask for his help. You can ask him what style of communication works for him.

This may have the potential to annoy him or frustrate him, yes, but you deserve his help, feedback, and communication in this topic. Its obvious that this is important to you and your husband should support you in your attempt to better yourself. Framing the topic in terms of being about you and your own issues may help alleviate any feelings that he has about it him being attacked or the cause of the problem. Personally, I think your willingness to discuss and confront this topic shows great personal strength and a strong desire to address your own issues and better yourself. It also demonstrates a strong commitment to your relationship. It can be extremely difficult (and uncomfortable and unpleasant and painful) to hold a mirror to yourself and examine your own reactions closely. It takes courage to do so.

I applaud you for your effort and wish you nothing but the best of luck in this endeavor. I hope you are able to overcome this issue and I hope you can get your husband's support because it is very important.

GreenGlass's picture

Supplicant

He has told me that he prefers me to speak face to face with him and that he doesn't like it when I try to write him letters or communicate by e-mail. That being said, I am thinking about all the encouragement to communicate more, although the task seems very difficult to accomplish because he has expressed a dislike of me pushing him to communicate in the past. So I am trying not to push, and I'm thinking.

I don't feel that I deserve his help, feedback, and communication in this topic because he has made it so clear that he wants this topic permanently closed. From what I can tell it was a combination of his own hurt and unhappiness at hurting me so badly. At least, he expressed the later once, deep regret that he had hurt me so badly, in more dramatic terms. This is an area that will take a lot of time for me.

But again, thank you.

Mystaia's picture

My three pence:

It's not just men who fantasise about threesomes, women can as well. And there are also men out there who do not want a threesome. Often, you could ask the guy "would you like a threesome with another guy?" and the majority of them will say "no". That helps guys understand how (some) women feel about involving another woman in a party-for-two. Personally, I do have fantasies about being in a threesome, MFF, that is. And I'm a female, in case that wasn't clear. Wink

However, there was a time when the thought of a threesome was scary. I was insecure and afraid that whoever the second girl would be, my boyfriend would run off with her, or get so addicted to threesomes he wouldn't want to be with me anymore, etc. etc. As I grew more confident of myself and started dating better, more reliable guys, that wear went away. Wink

And the third pence, it's about the "I thought you were a loving person" aspect. I kind of understand that, maybe. Depending on how you view what love is and sex is... When I'm with my partner, I often wish that I could share the great pleasure we have with all of our friends. I want others to feel as amazing as we do. Although it's entirely possible that other people also feel amazing as it is and really do not need the help of us... Truth is, I've been in about 10 sexual relationships, and this is the first one I have actually received such great pleasure from! And I'm not talking about orgasms or oral, I've had that elsewhere as well, but it's just so much more than that. For us, it is a spiritual experience which puts us in touch with the universe, and I feel as if I love everyone all over the world. I wish my female friends could be with my partner, because I want them to feel that feeling too. I guess what I'm trying to say is, everyone expresses their love for other people in their own way. But I think a part of love is wanting other people to be happy. Being a loving person can sometimes mean you want to share good things with others, your favourite movies, your favourite food, and - if you're so inclined - it can be sex. But if not, that doesn't make you any less loving. Wink

Anyway, no matter how much I would like to share my partner with my friends... He doesn't want me to. And even if he did, I would be entirely too scared to even suggest it to a friend, and I highly doubt that any of them would want it anyway. I suppose that, ultimately, sex is not really something you share between friends, and... I imagine a lot of people would feel awkward afterwards and it could ruin a great friendship. So being a loving person within the context a monogamous relationship is probably the easiest way to love. Love-sex with the One, and friendly cups of tea with all the rest. Wink

Blessings,

~*Mystaia

GreenGlass's picture

Supplicant

Oh yes, so can women. That is true. ^_^

Thank you for sharing your past fears and growth!

I like your thoughts on being loving. They are, for lack of a better word, pleasant to read. I would wonder if your experience is one that many others could attain, even if put in the exact same circumstance! I don't know if I'm capable of that experience, because for some really weird reason, trying to imagine myself feeling that way doesn't sound very nice. I'm not sure why. Probably because such an experience of course shrivels without belief, and I don't think I could authentically let myself believe I love everyone. I would personally be ashamed of myself because of the intensity of what love is to me and what that would have to mean in action (meaning, if I really love the world, I would HAVE to do a lot more with my life to act in loving ways to all of humanity, and since I do not, I must admit I am still too selfish to give my time and energy to loving the world).

I have no idea what love would be easiest, but I think I still agree with the gist of your final statement. In my case it might be impossible for me to love at all if I forced certain situations on myself, but I also think that relationships and love are very complex so monogamy being "easier" has something for it as well.

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