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Neya & Nerr Say

  • Posted on: 16 July 2009
  • By: Amy
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Comments

Stormy's picture

Supplicant

I wanna hug 'em and squeeze 'em to itty-bitty pieces

Andrea's picture

Supplicant

so cute!

Capriox's picture

Embodiment

I want to love them and squish them and he shall be mine and I shall call him squishy!

er... sorry, started channeling Dori from Finding Nemo there... Wink

TheBoy's picture

Embodiment

to announce that reference. I totally got it.

Capriox's picture

Embodiment

Sorry. I'm really terrible at playing the "get my quote" game m'self, so I tend to over-compensate.

Zandu Ink's picture

Embodiment

Just what I always wanted. My own little bunny rabbit. I will name him George, and I will hug him and pet him and squeeze him and pat him and pet him and rub him and caress him and...

Capriox's picture

Embodiment

Bleh. Why is that when you're a moody, angsty teenager (14 year old freshman in my high school), they make you read all the really depressing stuff? I had to read Romeo & Juliet, Of Mice and Men, and Catcher in the Rye all in the same year. (Romeo & Juliet alone isn't bad - woot Shakespeare! - but in company like that...) It's almost as bad as all the sexually-abused-as-a-child stories they make you read in college creative writing classes. Gah.

Gudy's picture

Embodiment

... why Romeo and Juliet is such a staple of the teenage school years. Why, people are bound to misunderstand the thing as a tragic love story, if only because they lack the world-weary cynicism necessary to appreciate it for what it is - a cautionary tale about the dangers of unfettered, obsessive, teenage infatuation. Blum 3

Someone's picture

Postulant

I always read it as a comedy of errors. My grade 9 english teacher didn't really appreciate that interpretation though.

Gudy's picture

Embodiment

... seeing as this endorsement comes from a guy who thinks that the story of Eve and Adam should be read as a ringing endorsement of shameless nudism, I'm not quite sure how much store you should put into that. Wink

Amy's picture

Supplicant

Nudity is good. Very hard to hide a weapon when you are nude.

Capriox's picture

Embodiment

Very hard - but not impossible!

Those of you who know a bit of Captain Jack's story before the time in the Valiant fic will understand why I'm giggling right now. ;-D

Amy's picture

Supplicant

Capriox wrote:
Bleh. Why is that when you're a moody, angsty teenager (14 year old freshman in my high school), they make you read all the really depressing stuff? I had to read Romeo & Juliet, Of Mice and Men, and Catcher in the Rye all in the same year. (Romeo & Juliet alone isn't bad - woot Shakespeare! - but in company like that...) It's almost as bad as all the sexually-abused-as-a-child stories they make you read in college creative writing classes. Gah.

Tell me about it. I Managed Romeo & Juliet, & Of Mice & Men, then told the teacher that if she wanted me to finish reading Catcher In The Rye she would have to place the damned book in my grave, I was honestly ready to slit my wrists reading the damned book. She also had us read The Sun Also Rises, a colossal waste of time paper & emotional fortitude. Left a reader with far too much of our own angst while dealing with Hemingway's drink induced verbalised ramblings.

Capriox's picture

Embodiment

Yeah, I totally failed to empathize with anything about Holden or his situation. Another novel that I could NOT enjoy and only barely finished was the Scarlet Letter. The raging hypocrisy in of the minister was almost impossible to get through. Disgusting.

I mean, why not read the Merchant of Venice instead? Or Aesop's Fables? Or Gulliver's Travels! Or anything by Dickens? Or, hell, something by Asimov? The "I, Robot" anthology is a nice source of educational-conversation-starters. The Foundation series would provide nice tie-ins to major themes in the history classes...

Hmm... what would the rest of y'all recommend as a "classic" that high school freshmen should read?

Raigne's picture

Embodiment

He's not meant to be a sympathetic character, iirc. He's notable in that way. Also in that he fails to grow at all from the beginning to the end of the story.

We read Clockwork Orange and Brave New World. Those two are also sort of depressing in their way. And The Picture of Dorian Gray. And the Iliad.

I am so glad that I was able to take a lit class I might actually enjoy for the fall. Detective Lit. I loves me some Sherlock Holmes.

Frog Princess's picture

Devotee

Here in Israel they make you read Crime and Punishment at the eleventh grade. Leaving aside the fact that most people whose first language is Hebrew can't even properly pronounce most Russian surnames, never mind memorise them, which leads to students constantly mixing characters up, and never mind the fact that that novel is not written for the teen level of understanding, why is Dostoyevsky is mandatory in Israely school? He was a raging anti-semite. Am I the only one seeing the joke here?

Raigne's picture

Embodiment

Does being an anti-semite automatically mean that he has nothing of value to say or write about? I dislike racism, happen to be pretty open minded and laid back myself, but I wouldn't agree with banning reading material based on the author's personal ideologies, even if I loathe them.

As far as the memorizing names being difficult, only practice will remedy that.

The Which's picture

Embodiment

I don't think she's suggesting *banning* the book, just that she doesn't think it should be *required reading*

ETA: I haven't read it, so I don't know if it is appropriate for that age level--I just think there is a difference Blum 3

TheBoy's picture

Embodiment

The initial comment appeared to suggest that the book is less worthy of study because of the author's beliefs.

Raigne's picture

Embodiment

the sentiment I was responding to. I know that in situations where a majority of people believe that, banning is the usual end result.

The Which's picture

Embodiment

hrrm. I read that last statement differently, as I hate this book, I don't think it's appropriate for the age group, and (icing on the cake) I hate the author, too. A knee-jerk sort of statement--which she later admitted she didn't entirely mean.

The thing that's lovely about this forum is that people will call you on it when you make a statement like the OP's, as you did. I just wanted to point out that at no point did she actually suggest banning the book. There are LOTS of books I think would be inappropriate required reading in high school--that doesn't mean I want to ban them!

Frog Princess's picture

Devotee

I'm against any kind of banning. I just feel there are many things wrong with the required reading program both in highschool and university. There is overhelming focus on the western classics to the exlusion of all else (as if nothing outside of Greece-Rome-Europe-Modern West ever existed and produced literature), there is rigidity of the teachings in highschool that squishes free thought in kids, and more. C&P is just a tip of the iceberg when it comes to all things wrong about hightschool literature class, something that stuck out as the worse memory on this subject for me.

Raigne's picture

Embodiment

enough about schools in Israel to have an opinion on them in general, but having come from an alternative highschool here in the U.S. that opposed standardized testing and the type of education it promotes, I can empathize with your frustration. If a group of students approached some of the Literature teachers and suggested some classics from other cultures, would your teachers be willing to develop curriculum for it? That was something my highschool promoted. If someone had said, "I want to do this book instead," we would have been allowed to. I think the only thing that we requested that we didn't get to read was the Canterbury Tales, and that was because the teacher in question needed to familiarize herself with them before she could really teach us anything about them.

applejax's picture

Supplicant

If we suggested anything outside the planned curriculum, they would have said "Read it on your own time". I went to a pretty nice, although quite standard public school in Connecticut, and even then the teachers had very little leeway on what they could teach us. I'm sure some of them would have been willing to teach something different, had it been allowed, but it seemed like the school board sent out a little calendar for which books went where and how long to study them for.

Raigne's picture

Embodiment

Benefit of going to a non-standard high school. Curriculum was very much based on what the students wanted to learn. We had a criminology class, an african american history class, a needle arts class, poetry, creative writing, yoga (you could take it instead of regular phys ed. My senior year someone got DDR approved as acceptable in place of phys ed.)

MeiLin's picture

Most High

homeschooling! Biggrin You don't need anyone's approval for anything that way!

Raigne's picture

Embodiment

I have a low opinion because my cousins were homeschooled so that their parents could keep them sheltered and following God, and so they didn't have to contend with the fact that their names were never legally changed to what they go by, because their step-father would have to adopt them and the parents would stop receiving my uncle's social security benefits (he comitted suicide in '94). I see a great deal of potential for abuse of that system and failure on the part of the parents teaching their kids, and all kind of antisocial and behavioral problems if they aren't allowed to play with other kids like my cousins.

I know you homeschool, but I also recall that you've got bona fide education credentials of some kind, and I doubt you keep your kids locked up away from other kids (hell hard to do that if you've let them go to camp).

MeiLin's picture

Most High

because I hate the narrow columns

The Which's picture

Embodiment

they let the teachers teach what they wanted to teach. My 5th grade teacher decided to teach us chess, and paired it with Alice Through the Looking Glass as reading material. I LOVED it.

Then we moved to a different state, and the school system here was a standardized-testing-is-the-most-important-thing type of district. I cant say that I remember a single thing about the lessons I had after the move, other than I was always bored and the teachers never seemed to be enjoying themselves.

TheBoy's picture

Embodiment

I liked C&P in 12th grade FAR better than I liked Great Expectations and Jane Eyre (back-to-back no less) in 9th grade. Or Wuthering Heights in 12th grade. Or my 10th grade English teacher (at all).

I thought Crime & Punishment was interesting at about that same age--one of my favorite "books I've been forced to read."

And along with what Raigne said--I'm guessing they listen to Wagner, too.

MeiLin's picture

Most High

Public performance of Wagner is banned in Israel, though several musicians, notably Daniel Barenboim, have broken it.

TheBoy's picture

Embodiment

I think that's pretty fucked up.

Frog Princess's picture

Devotee

And I do agree with TB about the Wagner issue. I do still feel that C&P is a bit too heavy for most 15 year olds. I can't explain why, but the novel just fails to resonate in the 15 year old brain. And before anyone suspects me of being a blockhead that doesn't appreciate the classics, I would like to mention that I read Faust on a whim at age 11, and most of the Divine Comedy at age 14 (couldn't get thru the Paradise section, it seemed awfully dull) and enjoied both immenselly. But the gloomy realisim of C&P, coupled with constant moral agonizing just flew over the head of any teen I knew.

TheBoy's picture

Embodiment

so our 12th grade is 17-18--and I think that's a way better age for C&P than 15.

V's picture

Embodiment

Whatever our problems might be, I'm still glad my country has that "Bill of Rights" thing to stand behind.

Zandu Ink's picture

Embodiment

But why is Wagner banned in Isreal?

TheBoy's picture

Embodiment

anti-semitism, and his music's use by the Nazis.

Alyxe's picture

Petitioner

Heyla

Actually, my initial thought at seeing the picture was a bit older... "Lover-twin powers... activate!" -giggle-

-r

Amy's picture

Supplicant

Oh Nerr & Neya both bless you for that. I so needed that laugh today.

Alyxe's picture

Petitioner

Heyla, Amy

Sorry to hear your day was going that kind of way but glad I could help out, if only a little. -smile-

Worse... I spent the next hour or two twitching, musing about what kind of things THOSE two would be wanting to become. -g-

Amy's picture

Supplicant

Thank you for your sympathy. & I agree you got the worst end of the deal dreaming up what they want to become.

*HUGS* :jawdrop: :whistle:

MeiLin's picture

Most High

1) I don't even have a college degree let alone a teaching credential. You don't need either to homeschool. You need to have kids that you like as well as love. That's it.

2) Homeschooling was started by secularists. It's a misconception (actively fostered by some Christian homeschooling groups *cough*HSLDA*cough*) that all or even most homeschoolers are fundamentalist Christians.

3) Homeschoolers as a group are more likely to be active in their communities than public school families. We have the time and flexibility to volunteer.

4) If I took advantage of even half the activities available for homeschoolers, we would be carschoolers. Smile I haven't met a homeschool family yet who tries to keep their kids away from other kids--to the contrary, most of us are constantly looking for opportunities for our kids to get together, and in fact No1 Daughter hosts a play group at a local park once a week.

If I do have a homeschooling credential, it's that I "own" the largest homeschool discussion list in Oregon. (It kinda owns itself, but I am the current owner in name.) And I've homeschooled No1 and No2 since their births.

Quote:

I see a great deal of potential for abuse of that system and failure on the part of the parents teaching their kids, and all kind of antisocial and behavioral problems if they aren't allowed to play with other kids like my cousins.

Public schools fail a far greater percentage of kids than homeschoolers do. Most homeschooled kids test far, far above their public-schooled compatriots, and universities are now actively competing for homeschoolers; they come to college already self-directed and ready to learn, with a good idea of what they want to do in life.

If you really want the scoop, read John Holt (links to just one of his wonderful books--he started out as a school reformer and concluded they couldn't be reformed), John Taylor Gatto (a one-time public school Teacher of the Year--this was his seminal book) and Linda Dobson (no relation to James Dobson that I'm aware of). They answer the concerns you raise far better than I can. Linda's out-of-print book "The Art of Education" is so inspiring, I cried reading it.

Homeschooling can benefit the entire family. Our schedule is flexible; it isn't tied to an artificial school calendar. We don't miss out on moments like when No1 realized she could really read, or No2 discovered she could actually understand multiplication. NO ONE knows my kids better than we do. They are bright, happy girls who are comfortable talking and playing with adults or younger children, and can navigate the world with little difficulty even now. And to my great joy, they appear to be able to talk to their father and me about anything (you wouldn't believe some of the conversations we've had). They've missed out on the Four B's--bullying, belittling, busy work, and boredom--that benefit no one and do not prepare anyone for life, at all. I worry about my girls' future, just as any parent does, but I'm far more excited to see the independent women they will become.

Plus also, No1 makes awesome bacon onigiri, and if she weren't home I'd have to make them for myself. Wink

applejax's picture

Supplicant

homeschooling was more common in my area. I know so many families, either from meeting the kids at school or from babysitting, where the parents barely know their kids. They only see them for two or three hours between when the parents are home and the kids go to bed. When I've babysat, sometimes the parents don't even know what the kids like to do, or their favorite colors or things they are interested in at school. They go from school, to the after school program, to sometimes a nanny, to rushed parents trying to get dinner on the table and things ready for the next day. Luckily my parents weren't like that, and my dad was home every day after school when I got off the bus, but way too many children in my area have distant parents who aren't really being parents.

That was a bit rambling, but I've seen too many kids grow up that way.

Raigne's picture

Embodiment

I don't know enough about it to have any kind of a well-formed opinion, and the experience I do have is exactly the kind of minority you're talking about that gives it a bad rap.

The school I went to was public, but it was very focused on subverting the paradigm. It was founded in the 70's and most of the students there are ones who are smart but don't do well in the super-structured, standardized school system. Many of them test poorly because that just isn't the way they can best show what they know. It was a portfolio and demonstration based model.

I tested spectacularly but had issues with homework and certain teachers let it slide because I demonstrated that I understood the material by tutoring the other students. My poor performance in school caused all sorts of self esteem problems for me because I had ADD and it wasn't diagnosed until i was an adult and had already wasted a year an a half of Federal Financial Aid on a school I didn't want to be going to and in fields I didn't want to pursue for a career because I didn't think I could manage at a "real" college. The first thing the counselor at the college I'm attending in the fall said to me was expressing shock at how high my SAT scores were. They didn't even give them a second glance at the place I got my IT and Graphic Design degrees from because the vast majority of the students attending the school don't have a high school diploma, let alone SAT scores, and all they (the college) care about is turning a profit.

MeiLin's picture

Most High

You were really lucky to live in an area that had a progressive school like that. Myself, I don't like any kind of school, but if I had to send them to school, I'd hope I could find one like that.

Amy's picture

Supplicant

great points one & all. I home schooled my son for a few years, & we both loved it. I would write his assignments for him, he would tackle them right after breakfast with glee. & we would go over them in open discussion as soon as he was done with them. He prefered to work on all subjects of the day before we went over them. & some times we would debate his very creative answers to history & English.

He got to the point where the encyclopaedia was *fun* reading. I hated having to send him back to public schooling, he was over prepared & they would not jump him to where he should be. Making for a bored student who no longer saw the need to study. Collage was a shock to him, but he quickly relearned to study thankfully.

Sadly every thing good can and usually is perverted towards bad uses. Home schooling is no exception.

Capriox's picture

Embodiment

Full disclosure: I'm not even sure I want kids.

If I do end up with kids, I certainly don't want to be chained to them and have to nanny and spend my life instructing them. I have farming to do and a life to live. I'd easily love and like them, and teach them everything I could as it comes up (I easily fall into "teaching" role when I'm doing on-the-job training for new employees), but researching all the material and lessons that they need to cover and then making sure they got it all and driving them all over the countryside to get 'em to the opportunities like MeiLin was referring too? Sorry, but I've already got a career and a half.

Also, I just don't care to spend all my time with *any* individual. My kids would have to become independent little buggers quickly, because I would be their mother, not their babysitter. Getting them to grade school would be a relief in that sense.

So unless my husband decides he wants to become our potential kids' full-time educator (which is a whole other discussion), they're gonna go to *some* type of formal schooling program.

Raigne's picture

Embodiment

"no kids, not ever" camp. I don't even want to deal with it. If I had to I'd try and improve on how I was brought up. The same opportunities, exposed to a variety of ideas, but not going into denial when their teacher tells me they may have ADD, trying to provide a stable home where they don't have to worry about their mother going batshit insane at the drop of a hat or avoiding dad when he's had a few too many drinks.

*dances around* I don't have to deal with any of it! Yay!

Well. Not in a permanent fashion. I am trying to talk one of my mother's friends into sending her son to me for tutoring. He's got ADD symptoms and a mother in denial, and a deadbeat dad. I'm kinda hoping I can give him a little bit of the support he'll need to not end up in a big well of doubt and self loathing when he hits high school, like I did. His dad's the biggest problem he's got right now. Very homophobic, and Zach likes theater. He's only 8, and he wants to take dance, and his father refuses to let him, telling him no son of his is going to turn into a fucking fairy. He tells him all the time that he's stupid because he's failing in school. He's failing in school because he can't focus.

MeiLin's picture

Most High

I just want to clear up some misconceptions.

Capriox wrote:
If I do end up with kids, I certainly don't want to be chained to them and have to nanny and spend my life instructing them.

That's not at all what I do. At all. Smile Ask yourself: Would Mei have been able to write three novels in 18 months if she were chained to her kids?

Quote:
I have farming to do and a life to live. I'd easily love and like them, and teach them everything I could as it comes up (I easily fall into "teaching" role when I'm doing on-the-job training for new employees), but researching all the material and lessons that they need to cover and then making sure they got it all and driving them all over the countryside to get 'em to the opportunities like MeiLin was referring too? Sorry, but I've already got a career and a half.

I don't carschool. We all hate running around all day in a car. And a farming mom like you? Seriously, you could teach them by just taking them on your daily rounds and including them in your life as a farmer. They would learn everything they need to know, right there.

I don't do much research. I let my kids learn by living. I provide them with resources like good (non-textbook) books and laptops and the very occasional class or workbook/worksheet. If they want to study something in particular, *then* I do research, and we tend to do that together. When No1 turns 12, she'll be given a sheaf of bus tickets and the commandment to go do something on her own at least once a week--the art museum, or the Japanese gardens, the zoo, or OMSI (science museum). When each of the girls turns 16, they'll be going to the local community college to round out any gaps in the basics.

Quote:
So unless my husband decides he wants to become our potential kids' full-time educator (which is a whole other discussion), they're gonna go to *some* type of formal schooling program.

That's the whole point. We unschool. I'm not their full-time educator. If I were, I couldn't write. *They* are their own full-time educators, just like any other person. Children are learning machines, and will continue to be so unless someone or something stomps it out of them.

Honestly not trying to convince you. I just want folks to understand what homeschooling is; it sure as hell isn't sitting at a kitchen table for 8 hours a day, because even if we did a curriculum, we'd be done with all the actual schoolwork of public school in 90 minutes. The rest of what they do in school is busy work and crowd control.

The Which's picture

Embodiment

while homeschooling my sister (she was only homeschooled in high school). It allowed my sister to keep the schedule teenagers normally keep (the majority of teenagers are hard wired to stay up late), wake up at 10:00, and do a little work on her own before my mom got home at 1:00 to discuss what was accomplished so far. She had tutors for math and science, and took a few college classes.

She ended up with a pretty good education, but even if it had been crap, there is something to be said for learning to teach yourself (and knowing when to ask for help.)

Mexican Seafood.'s picture

Ohhhh...this makes me want a kitten, cept, I don't like cats. I'm more of a dog person...

chaos_theory64's picture

Devotee

That is so sweet...

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