Chapter 36 | The Last Royal Mistress
Wedding Rings for a Wedding Night
Two things marred Fen Wallek’s happiness on his wedding day. One was a big thing. Only Arta’s aunt was among the witnesses, and none of his family were there. The one member of his family who lived in the capital was still in the Healer’s House, and Fen didn’t think it would be wise for Bern to come to the Keep anyway. What if Bern took it into his head to storm the Residence Wing in an attempt to talk to His Majesty? What if one of the guards recognized him? No, it wouldn’t have worked out.
The second was a small thing. An itch at the side of Fen’s nose would not stop. He sacrificed his new-found secretarial dignity and rubbed it. Why did it take women so long to do anything? He looked up at the freshly-tonsured Father behind the lectern, calmly paging through the Law. Was he old enough to be a Father? What if they found out years later they weren’t really married? What then! He wouldn’t have that shame on Arta for the world.
Worry got the better of him. “Excuse me,” said Fen, “how long have you been a Father?”
“I beg your pardon?” said the Father--down his nose, Fen thought. Then again, the Father was quite tall.
“You’re not a Postulant still, is all I’m wondering.”
The Father raised his eyebrows. “And what makes you think the Temple of Pagg would send a Postulant to perform a wedding?”
“I don’t know!” said Fen. “You’re just a little--young.”
“I assure you I am a Father. I admit it’s recent, but I am a Father.”
“How many weddings have you performed, Father...?”
“Father Nino. Actually,” said the Father, “this is my first.”
Wonderful, thought Fen. “You do know the right words and everything, don’t you?”
“Strangely,” said Father Nino, “they’re written down in this enormous book in front of me. Are you having second thoughts about this?”
“No!” said Fen. “I’ve loved this girl since we were children!”
“Oh, a whole four spokes, then,” said Father Nino. “Now, don’t get aggravated, it’s your wedding day. Look, here she comes.”
Fen turned. Mr Affton led Arta down the aisle in lieu of her father, her arm tucked through his. Her long corkscrews fell down her back, held by a band of tiny white flowers. Fen had always loved her hair, but it faintly registered; he saw only her eyes, large and bright, looking into his. He took her hand from Mr Affton; the butler smiled at him for the first time since Fen had arrived at the Keep, and he smiled back in happy surprise before facing the priest.
The Father loosely wrapped the marriage cord around the couple’s joined hands and intoned the service--he was all right, thought Fen, listening only for the part that mattered. Pagg’s approval, guide the wife, bless with children, we entreat you, yes, yes, get on with it.
“Arta,” Father Nino finally said, “do you give yourself to this man as wife, to serve for the rest of your life?”
“Yes!” she said, never looking away from Fen.
“Fen, do you accept this woman’s service as your wife, to care for her the rest of her life?”
“Yes,” he said. Don’t cry, don’t cry, don’t cry. “I want nothing more, Arta,” he whispered.
The Father took the marriage cord and transferred it to Arta’s wrist. He took a long time tying the first knot; the very end of Father Nino’s tongue protruded from the corner of his mouth as he awkwardly fiddled with the cord. “Obedience,” he finally said with relief. The second knot--”humility”--and the third knot--”fidelity”--went more quickly, and the Father handed Fen the cord’s end. “She is yours.”
They turned to face the gathering. Fen held up Arta’s hand, and shouted “She is mine!” The onlookers roared their approval; he put his free arm around her, pulled her close and kissed her while the other servants hooted and clapped. With Mr Winmer on one side, Mr Affton on the other, the couple went down to the marriage breakfast--why was it called the “marriage breakfast,” thought Fen, when it was always in the afternoon?
At first Fen wasn’t hungry; knowing Arta was now his wife filled him up. By the time they’d gone round to all the tables, receiving congratulations and exchanging kisses and handshakes, he was starving.
They sat down at the head table between Mr Affton and Mr Winmer, and fed each other with their free hands as the onlookers toasted them. Before Fen had gotten much inside him, a new wave of well-wishers arrived, released from duty as the old ones returned to their jobs; the rounds of greetings began again.
They sat down a second time, but then the band started playing the dobla; the happy couple must dance the first dance, and then of course his Arta couldn’t help but dance a whole set. Since he had to keep hold of the marriage cord, that meant he had to dance the whole set, too. She loved to dance so much, and got to dance so little, that he could not deny her. By the time it was dark enough for torches to be lit, Fen thought he might gnaw his foot off.
Mr Winmer took him aside. “Now, young Wallek,” he said, “here is a present for you and your lady. I know you haven’t had either chance or money to buy your wedding rings.”
“No,” said Fen. “We just saved enough for our promise rings.” --that Temmin ended up buying for us, thanks to Bern and his medical bills, he added to himself. “I am hoping to have enough saved for our rings by the end of the year, and just move our promise rings to the left hand for now.”
“You must have a ring to give her tonight when you’re alone. Custom requires it.” The dapper little man produced a red leather ring case. “These are--family heirlooms,” he said. “You are welcome to use them until you can buy your own.”
Fen opened the case. Inside were two intricately carved silver rings, “Mr Winmer--! I can’t accept these!” said Fen.
“You’re not accepting them,” smiled Winmer, closing the case and pressing it into Fen’s hands. “You are borrowing them.” Fen quarreled with himself. On the one hand, taking the rings felt like an imposition on his master, Mr Winmer. On the other, it deeply shamed him not to have a ring for his wife on her wedding night. Shame won out. Fen returned the smile and tucked the little case into his waistcoat pocket, but Mr Winmer turned away.
The remaining revelers, led by the increasingly merry Mistress Mannell, escorted them to Spring Cottage. The housekeeper was flushed, her usually smooth exterior cheerfully rumpled. “Here,” she said, placing a hamper at their feet. “Food left from the breakfast. You can’t have had time to eat.” She took their free hands and shook them tenderly. “Spring Cottage was mine, you know, back when Mannell was still alive. It is a fine place to start a life together, and I wish you every happiness!” She shooed the tipsy servants away from the door, carried the hamper in for them, and set it on the table. Someone had lit the lamps, and the housekeeper looked around, the amber light glittering in her suddenly young eyes. “A fine, fine place! We were so happy!” she said again. At the sight of the open door to what was once her own bedroom, her face crumpled, and the light swam rather than danced in her eyes. “I know you will be as happy here as we were.” She kissed Arta on her rosy cheek, and left them alone.
“Now, Mr Wallek,” said Arta, “will you let go the cord so I may set out the hamper?”
“I will never let go of this cord, Mistress Wallek, not even for the hamper,” he answered, wrapping the cord around his fist and tugging her nose-to-nose with him.
“So, starve to death, then?”
“Supper in bed.” He kissed her turned-up nose and brushed her lips lightly with his.
“I’d feel Mam hovering over our bed with her long spoon, come to beat me if I let crumbs in the sheets.”
“Can’t have a hovering Mam on a wedding night--or any night. I release you, on one condition. You’ll shuck that dress, and then your petticoats, and then your corset, and then your drawers, and then your chemise, and then your stockings and shoes. Then for the hamper.”
“And you left alone in your fine new suit? You’ll get crumbs in your waistcoat pockets.”
“We’ll see.” He dropped the cord.
She carefully removed the dress, folded it, and reverently placed it in a white box on the sideboard; for the first time, Fen noticed the dress was some sort of green, with little flowers. It suited her very well, but why was she treating it like a piece of Grandmam’s best porcelain?
Once the dress was gone, she fairly kicked off her petticoats. Off came the corset, hook by hook, and onto the pile of frilly white. The drawers and chemise joined them, leaving her in white stockings with green ribbon garters; she moved to untie them. “No,” Fen said, staying her. “I’d like to see that some more.” Arta laughed, her curls falling over her shoulders; he brushed them back, and kissed her.
So rare the kisses since they’d come to the Keep! They didn’t always have time off together, and then there were few places to go for privacy--a hurried grope in a dark hallway, a furtive meeting in the King’s Woods with just enough time to make love against a tree but no time for more. They hadn’t had the luxury of either time or a place of their own. Now, they had both. Fen cradled her face in his hands and kissed her nose, her eyes and her forehead. “I do love you,” he said. “And I am about to faint from hunger. Now for the hamper!” He gave her naked bottom a little smack, producing a very satisfying little squeak, and they opened the wicker lid and dove in.
Arta sat on his lap as they ate, popping bits of cake into his mouth and kissing away the crumbs “before they get in your pockets. Can you believe it?” she said, holding up a small cluster of blue-black grapes. “From the forcing houses!”
“You did your best, love, but Miss Ellika will have her way in some things.”
“She didn’t have her way in the most important one,” said Arta, kissing her husband again.
“Not jealous still!” he said.
She popped a grape into his mouth. “You never had a chance.”
“She never had a chance against you,” said Fen, taking the grapes from her hand. She pressed close against him, arms around his neck, and he scooped her up, carried her to the bedroom and set her on the bed.
Arta pulled herself to her knees and worked on the buttons of his waistcoat as he buried his head in her hair, whuffling. “Hold still!” she laughed. “What’s this?” she said, patting his waistcoat pocket.
“Oh!” He jumped on the bed next to her, pulled out the red ring case and opened it. The ring carvings showed dark against the bright silver.
“Fen, they’re beautiful!” said Arta. “But we can’t afford such as these--how did you come by them?”
“Never you mind, they’re just for now, but I can’t have you going without a wedding ring on your wedding night.”
“Let me go first.” She chose the larger of the two rings, and looked into his eyes. “My husband,” she said, and slipped it onto his left ring finger.
His eyes rolled back in his head, and he collapsed onto the bed snoring, his freckled nose wrinkling.
“Fen!” she giggled. “Are you that drunk?” She shook him, but he slept on. She pursed her lips. “Ah, well.” She took the remaining ring, slipped it onto her own finger, and fell fast asleep beside him.
The mirror beside the wardrobe began to shimmer.
The Intimate History books are drafts. Keep that in mind as you read. A fully edited and revised version of each book will appear beginning in 2010.
Scryer's Gulch stands and falls on its own, a true soap opera. Never look back, never revise, just make shit up to explain those plot holes away! Yeehaw!
An Intimate History of the Greater Kingdom and Scryer's Gulch by Lynn Siprelle writing as MeiLin Miranda are licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-Noncommercial-No Derivative Works 3.0 United States License.
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Comments
Oh dear
I hope it's just Teacher, but somehow I doubt it.
"The worst thing in life isn't to die. The worst thing is to have lived but have missed it."
I will try to be good.
My first thought was
"Oh PLEASE be Teacher!!! Please, please, PLEASE!!! Maybe as a warning, or something, but for God's sake, don't let it be Harsin or Connin"
Though with both Mistress Mannell's and Winmer's reactions, I can't think it would honestly be Teacher, even as much as I would hope....
What a creepy ending to a
What a creepy ending to a beautiful chapter.
I laughed my ass off through the ceremony.
ETA: this shows up btw. Ch. 16 and Ch. 17 right now.
It's supposed to be a challenge, that's why they call it a shortcut. If it was easy it would just be the way.
--Road Trip
"Funny. Terrible, but funny." (that's typically my aim)
-NorthwoodsMan
I know
I have to go in and manually fix them for some reason. It's extremely annoying.
You did a good job if I do
You did a good job if I do say so myself. = P Congrats on Fatherhood (graduating?).
alternatively,
Mei's putting the pressure on me!
TheBoy hasn't yet passed his Pagg-damned test.
It's supposed to be a challenge, that's why they call it a shortcut. If it was easy it would just be the way.
--Road Trip
"Funny. Terrible, but funny." (that's typically my aim)
-NorthwoodsMan
less pressure
more encouragement.
I LOVED the Return Of Nino!
I LOVED the Return Of Nino! Perfect!
And now excuse me while I go find something blunt to bash in the head of whichever male-whose-name-ends-with-in is about to crawl through that mirror.
Supreme Minister of All Livestock
"Use, do not abuse. Neither abstinence nor excess renders man happy." - Voltaire
Might I suggest...
A mannequin leg? Or a blow up doll?
I'll have to resign myself to the fact that Harsin has no redeeming qualities so that I don't expend energy on being infuriated at him.
When you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth. -Arthur Conan Doyle
------
It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a grue.
That's the problem - he does
That's the problem - he does have some redeeming qualities. If he spent any sort of effort on developing them (I'm thinking primarily of working on his relationship with Ansella, even if only to reduce the bitterness/resentment/sniping factor in the household) and less on stealing a poor boy's bride on their frigging wedding night, I could start forgiving him for his arrogance-bred errors of the past.
Right now, though, if Harsin (or Connin, I doubt it, but ya never know) comes through that mirror thanks to the Teacher, I'm-a hand Arta a fire iron and go arrange for escape transportation.
Supreme Minister of All Livestock
"Use, do not abuse. Neither abstinence nor excess renders man happy." - Voltaire
I see no problem.
My second step-father could be awesome. Really, he'd be the perfect man if it weren't for the drinking, which made him do dumb shit like put my mother in the hospital after a choke hold and threaten her with a loaded gun.
If the negative qualities of a person vastly outweigh the positive ones, ala the ying and yang (nothing is completely evil or completely good) then it is just as bad as having nothing good about you, if not worse, if you never do something to atone.
It's like someone apologizing to you when you both know full well that it will happen again. It's meaningless.
So for me, Harsin effectively has no redeeming qualities.
When you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth. -Arthur Conan Doyle
------
It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a grue.
SRLSLY!?
MeiLin! You are too cruel! Gaah!! *tears hair out*
- BCT
apologies
I came to that moment in the story and thought ZOMG. I have to because I am ebil.
::sad little beaten puppy
::sad little beaten puppy eyes::
very ebil. poor Arta... poor readers' blood pressures...
Supreme Minister of All Livestock
"Use, do not abuse. Neither abstinence nor excess renders man happy." - Voltaire
ebil, ebil, ebil...
Mistress Mannell had a good idea of what was going on without being in on it. Thinking she had a similar fate on her wedding night...
PETA = People Eating Tasty Animals
A failure to plan on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part.
Mannell
Not necessarily. I read her tears as being because she missed her husband and felt nostalgic for her own married days in the cottage. Fen and Arta are going to their shared bed tonight, but Mistress Mannell is still going to be a widow. That would make nearly anyone a bit weepy, I think.
Writers are sadists
Or sado-masochists. I always say that
Because why not?! #Oh, look, a webcomic!#
I just noticed there are two
I just noticed there are two L's in that "srsly." *facepalm*
- BCT
*cackle*
Right on two counts.
When you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth. -Arthur Conan Doyle
------
It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a grue.
I really enjoyed this
I really enjoyed this chapter, I got so much of the newlywed-happy-giggliness!
Never been so stumped at the end of a chapter. I can't imagine what could possibly involve Fen and Arta. Nothing bears thinking about
If you'll excuse the farce and conjecture.
*hate*
*hate*
nononononono!!!
Damnit! I was terribly afraid through the whole chapter that *something* would happen at the end of it, but I never suspected the rings. I really should have, but I didn't. Now that it's happening, I can't decide if I'm looking forward to it, or dreading it. It promises to be hot in the same way that Hildin and Emmae were, but I so love Arta! I wish Temmin could do something to stop him.
The Rings
Remember book 1, and how Hildin put Emmae to sleep by putting an enchanted ring on her finger? Those rings Winmer gave Fen are what knocked both Fen and Arta out. Which means Winmer was acting on Harsin's orders when he gave the rings. Leaving aside Harsin's wileness, I hate Winmer too
As soon as I saw...
the hesitation over saying the rings were a family heirloom, I thought, "Yes, but whose family?"
When you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth. -Arthur Conan Doyle
------
It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a grue.
"These are-- family
"These are-- family heirlooms," he said.
^ Winmer knows what they are, too. Hate seconded.
not so quick...
He doesn't exactly seem enthusiastic about what he's doing. He know's what's going on but is not proud of his part in it..
PETA = People Eating Tasty Animals
A failure to plan on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part.
The Mirror...
oh please let it not be what I'm thinking of. Harsin, keep it in your fucking pants for once!
In Winmer's defense, he'd be
In Winmer's defense, he'd be risking his life to defy Harsin on this point.
Teacher, too, is probably powerless to resist Harsin's orders to assist.
It's supposed to be a challenge, that's why they call it a shortcut. If it was easy it would just be the way.
--Road Trip
"Funny. Terrible, but funny." (that's typically my aim)
-NorthwoodsMan
Which is why...
I am not jumping on the Winmer hate-train. Harsin on the other hand is not fit to lick my boot heels.
When you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth. -Arthur Conan Doyle
------
It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a grue.
I totally agree...
Winmer even seems uncomfortable with giving the gifts to Fen. I could tell something was up with the rings when he refused to look at Fen after the boy took the ring box from him, of course, I didn't guess exactly what was up.
I thought maybe they'd make Arta and Fen instantly traceable, although that's kinda useless in hindsight, since Teacher could most likely do that as the newlyweds don't know of his abilities with reflective surfaces. That, or turn Arta into an insatiable sex-machine so she couldn't and wouldn't say 'No' to anyone. The actual purpose is much more elegant--that's why I'm not the author.
So
The rings, am I missing something?
The rings...
Were most likely given to Winmer by Harsin and enchanted by Teacher to get Fen out of the picture.
When you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth. -Arthur Conan Doyle
------
It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a grue.
noooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!
hmmm
Arta probably isn't like me, but I'd be quite a bit suspicious of the rings if putting one on his hand made my husband pass out cold on his wedding night... Maybe I'd try taking it off him first, try finding a stray barn cat to slip the other onto its tail, possibly run for help, certainly not put the other on my finger right away.
Sigh--I guess I wouldn't make for a very good character in this story!
But Arta...
probably doesn't know about or believe in magic. Most people in the story, outside of the royals, don't.
not magical
I'm not saying I'd suspect magic. I'm just thinking about if a similar thing happened to me in my life. At the moment, I have no reason to suspect that people I know, or are even near me are using magic in any sense, but I'd be suspicious. I'd probably get that horrible shivery-neck feeling when my partner passed out and be torn between investigating, and possibly putting myself in danger, and running for help. I probably wouldn't suspect magic, I'd just find the whole situation to weird and coincidental to just slip the other ring on my finger.
Not to say I think Arta's acting out of character. I was just a little shocked by her actions, because mine would have been so different.
Also, now I am wondering if the ring would put a cat to sleep, or are the tuned specifically to Arta and Fen, or humans in general...?
In hindsight
She will probably think it was a very good idea, but if you don't truly believe that something like that can happen, then you probably wouldn't notice the connection and just assume he was drunk like she did.
Getting an education is a bit like a communicable sexual disease. It makes you unsuitable for a lot of jobs and then you have the urge to pass it on.
Haha, true
I must say I ditto that. Even without magic, I'd suspect some poison or something and I'd take it off... But maybe we're just far more paranoid? XD
Because why not?! #Oh, look, a webcomic!#
I just think...
that if something magic happened to one of us, we would be skeptical and try to test it, but we would consider it a possibility. At least some of us are scientists, but all of us read things with magic in them. I don't think Arta has had that luxury and is likely to even consider that as a possibility. Besides, haven't you read books in which they talk about magic things happening and how everyone's brain tries to find a logical explanation for it? That's all Arta's doing. We would even think of drugs, but I'm guessing stuff like that wasn't very widespread in it's usage in those days. She hadn't watched hundreds of episodes of CSI or read stories where rings (or anything else) could be magical. Arta is also naive, and I think that makes her somewhat unsuspecting. She can't imagine that someone would do something horrible to her, especially on the happiest day of her life, and she certainly has no reason to connect it for the rings except for the timing. She just comes up with a simple, likely explanation for what's happening and calls it a day.
I'm also not sure how much it matters. Fen is the one that could be trouble. If they come through the mirror and Arta is awake, I'm not sure how much of a problem that would actually be.
One of the rings
was used to knock out Emmae. I doubt it was the man-sized one. Unless that rings falls off, my money is on nothing in the world being able to wake her up.
My major issue with this... is why do this on her wedding night? Why not at another time? I'm sure there are other ways to do it than the rings. I have a feeling that Harsin believes Arta is a virgin and he's possibly got a virgin fetish.
At least I hope that's the case, so I can take a little pleasure in his disappointment.
When you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth. -Arthur Conan Doyle
------
It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a grue.
Why tonight? because wedding
Why tonight?
because wedding night is the night that the sovereign has the right to do this. Shitty method of enforcement, if this is Harsin, but he'd be enforcing a right that has often existed in monarchies (I think).
It's supposed to be a challenge, that's why they call it a shortcut. If it was easy it would just be the way.
--Road Trip
"Funny. Terrible, but funny." (that's typically my aim)
-NorthwoodsMan
That didn't even occur to me.
I think I was familiar with the concept somewhere in the back of my head, but...
He's still an ass.
When you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth. -Arthur Conan Doyle
------
It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a grue.
ass
not many readers will dispute that point with you.
It's supposed to be a challenge, that's why they call it a shortcut. If it was easy it would just be the way.
--Road Trip
"Funny. Terrible, but funny." (that's typically my aim)
-NorthwoodsMan
Do we know for sure that
Do we know for sure that prima nocte is actually in effect in Tremont, though? We've speculated a lot that this sounds like it, but that doesn't mean it's actually so in the story
Also, this strikes me as sort of out of character for Harsin. He hasn't needed an excuse or legal cover to bed a wedded woman before. He also has struck me as preferring low-fuss affairs. Twenna was a very easy keeper until she got pregnant. This seems unusually dramatic for the otherwise practical-if-an-arrogant-prick Harsin.
And... the weekly donation count is quite high, so we're safely assured an answer either way this weekend (barring IRL drama in Meilin's life).
Supreme Minister of All Livestock
"Use, do not abuse. Neither abstinence nor excess renders man happy." - Voltaire
Unless...
She decides to give us a second points story...
When you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth. -Arthur Conan Doyle
------
It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a grue.
Lotsa jumping and some conclusions, too!
I'm definitely not going to argue that lots of hints and suggestions have been dropped. The seeds are most definitely planted.
But they haven't yet sprouted. No matter what you figure the odds, there's *some* chance that the mirroring visitor isn't intending to ravish Arta tonight. I don't believe there's any canonical support for prima nocte (as opposed to general asshattery) and you're right, it does feel out of character.
No matter what we believe, MeiLin is freakin *loving* all the drama, chatter, and frustration tho, I assure you
ETA: My pet theory is that Harsin's viewing this as an excellent opportunity to give his son a surprise that Temmin will really want. And if he doesn't, to teach him a little bit about rule and the proper application of power as seen by H. Whether Temmin's heard of this yet or not should soon be obvious.
Wow! Sarcasm! That's original!
Jus Primae Nocte, specifically
or "law of the first night" There is not a lot of evidence to support that this was actually used by the lords in medival Europe, but it's referred to a lot, perhaps most famously in the movie Braveheart. Most reputable scholars would probably agree that jus primae noctis is a male fantasy.
Other cultures though, according to Wikipedia have used it. As late as the early 20th century, Kurdish chieftains (khafirs) in Western Armenia reserved the right to bed Armenian brides on their wedding night.
Sometimes conflated with droit de seigneur which entitled a lord to the viriginity of all the maidens in his fifedom, along with other priviledges of hunting, taxations, etc., but not specific to wedding nights.
That's the general idea. I can't remember if anything in the History has specifically said this is a custom or has ever been a habit of the lords, or if it's just one of the power plays that Harsin enjoys so much (cannot forget the "I find coercion adds spice" comment).
Either way, it's despicable and just underlines how sex = power for so many. Humiliating your subjects with these power plays--people who are literally under your protection and subject to your rule--shows that absolute power corrupts absolutely. I both despise the part of Harsin that thinks it's OK for him to pull these stunts and pity him for his lack of decency.
And hope that Temmin continues to be more like his mother and his father-of-the-heart, Jenks, than his birth father.
Heterosexuality is not normal, it's just common. --Dorothy Parker
Paranoid personality
Well, even if not connecting it to the ring I'd feel alarmed that my man has gotten down so fast and suddenly. I mean, you can guess how drunk a person is and how fast he/she gets down after you know him/her a while; so rather than put the second ring on happily (instead of waiting for HIM to do it, which seems proper there) I'd check if he was OK (and maybe freak out a bit as he wouldn't wake up).
Then again I've always been more of a paranoid person so uhm, yeah, I understand where you're getting from
I mean she's a NORMAL girl XD
Because why not?! #Oh, look, a webcomic!#
Darn It!
Connin is going to ruin it!
Nothing of me is original. I am the combined efforts of everybody I've ever known. -Chuck Palahniuk, Invisible Monsters
angelsdescendants.wordpress.com/
emotionalcutter.wordpress.com/
ArghBlargh
Nooooooooo.
I adored the return of Nino but nooooooooooo. I suspected something bad with the rings
At least it's Tuesday, so we've still got all week . . .
only tuesday...
But thursday is going to be a bonus story so we have to wait until saturday...
PETA = People Eating Tasty Animals
A failure to plan on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part.
Hrrrm
I'm sort of up in the air about whose schemes the rings are ultimately serving. Harsin makes sense and I would not be surprised in the least if it was him. But Connin has his evil little fingers in a lot of pies right now, so I wouldn't be surprised if it was him either. It doesn't hurt that Harsin appears to be fairly preoccupied right now, and might be thinking more about vengeance and the future of his legitimate child and wife rather than boning a housemaid. So I'm looking forward to seeing who come out of the mirror fo' sho'.
An even better reason...
to come take it out on Arta. His favorite, Twenna, isn't exactly his favorite anymore, and I'm sure sex with Ansella is extremely out of the question. He has a lot of pent up pressure on him right now, and I'm guessing a release is exactly what he needs. If he's anything like me, stress leads to lots and lots of sex. Nothing relieves stress better.
replies, all in one handy package
The rings are indeed the one used to put Emmae to sleep in book one--or one of them is. They were made in the same fashion as the book. Winmer was ordered to do it and would not risk his life for a housemaid's honor. That's all you get till Saturday.
Saturday...ugh.
Saturday...ugh.
It's supposed to be a challenge, that's why they call it a shortcut. If it was easy it would just be the way.
--Road Trip
"Funny. Terrible, but funny." (that's typically my aim)
-NorthwoodsMan
I second that
I can't believe the chapter started out so nicely, just to be brought down at the end. I am so very sad and upset! Why can't there ever be a happy ending?
I suppose I should know better by now. Plus, now we have to wait until Saturday for all the answers, grrr...
Which I suppose is the point, to have us all eagerly anticipating the next chapter......
"Humor is mankind's greatest blessing." - Mark Twain
life lesson
tip better at the massage parlor, and there can!
It's supposed to be a challenge, that's why they call it a shortcut. If it was easy it would just be the way.
--Road Trip
"Funny. Terrible, but funny." (that's typically my aim)
-NorthwoodsMan
groan...
PETA = People Eating Tasty Animals
A failure to plan on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part.
Which means...
If Temmin saw the rings, he might recognize them. I am assuming he never will though.
When you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth. -Arthur Conan Doyle
------
It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a grue.
I can totally see Temmy
I can totally see Temmy distancing himself from his father if the man does indeed screw Arta and then it gets leaked out somehow.
*Twitch* Ebil
*Twitch*
Ebil ebilebilebilebilebil. I am full of sad. I dun want it to happen. I don't even care who comes out of the mirror, I'd rather that they just stay in the damn thing and mind their own busisness. fo sho.
"There is an art, a knack for flying. This knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss!"--DNA
Huh...
...to quote Captain Tightpants.
How does Harsin get through the mirror? He can't do it without Teacher, right? Is he ordering Teacher to take him through the mirror? Ick on many levels.
Heterosexuality is not normal, it's just common. --Dorothy Parker
Harsin?
I don't think Harsin needs to go to such lengths to bang Arta. Can't he just order her up? And even though he's a chauvanist, I don't see why he would make such an elaborate plan and squash Fen & Arta's happiness. As long as he gets what he wants, why would he mess with Fen? Fen isn't irritating like Elbig.
Because Fen's brother is a
Because Fen's brother is a traitor, or at least an insurrectionist.
It's supposed to be a challenge, that's why they call it a shortcut. If it was easy it would just be the way.
--Road Trip
"Funny. Terrible, but funny." (that's typically my aim)
-NorthwoodsMan
Oh crap
I didn't even think of that. And there's pretty much nothing anyone can do about it, if Harsin's upset about that. *sigh* Hopefully Harsin will just want her as a one time thing, or if he wants a longer thing, maybe she can act really clingy and repulse him in some way? I don't think that'd be enough if his goal is to ruin their happiness, though.
connectivity...
True on both, but does Harsin realized it was Fen's brother in the market? I'm thinking probably not, otherwise, would Fen still be employed at the keep?
PETA = People Eating Tasty Animals
A failure to plan on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part.
The only royal who knows
...is Ellika, and I don't think she's made the connection between Bern and Fen yet. (Have to go back through, but I don' think she has.) Someone at Bern's level would be the purview of the police and royal guard, but not the King himself.
My sentiments...
... exactly. Using those rings doesn't seem to be Harsin's style - he seems to favour a more direct approach in those things. On the other hand, the rings being what they are, and coming from Winmer, it seems unlikely that they'd come from anyone but Harsin.
Color me puzzled. And very, very irritated.
speculation...
Ah, but if they are both out cold, then Harsin comes in, moves Fen to the other room, takes off Arta's ring so she wakes up. Has his way with her and it seems like all a dream to her...
PETA = People Eating Tasty Animals
A failure to plan on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part.
gift.
Can you picture it as a father-son gift?
nasty...
But I think Tem would recognize the effect if not the ring itself.
PETA = People Eating Tasty Animals
A failure to plan on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part.
Temmin...
would never go through with it. He loves Fen too much, and besides, I think he's getting so much so often that he's not going to be interested in crying maids anymore.
Temmin...
Is also still at the temple, isn't he? This is still Nerr's Day, unless I'm mistaken.
When you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth. -Arthur Conan Doyle
------
It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a grue.
Actually it's
" Neyaday, the 6th Day of Summer’s Beginning " So Temmin may be at the temple but for different reasons.
Mean while This is looking far too much like a rape scene for my comfort. & make no mistake about it any Ruler (kings were not the only ones who did this) who claims first night is just using a thin film of gold leaf to try & hide a nasty shit heap the size of god. In this case the god in question should be Farr
Anything that kills your inner-song is always going to be bad for you. - Personal Wisdom
Missed it...
The new date in the last chapter. Nerr's Day was on Vennaday of the previous week, which was the first day of summer.
When you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth. -Arthur Conan Doyle
------
It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a grue.
That's probably true, though
That's probably true, though I'd have to look back to see. One of the things that struck me was how unquestioningly both Arta and Fen took the marriage ceremony. They certainly don't seem like the type of couple to have a distinct power balance, so I have to assume that after decades of living in their society, it just seems normal to them. That's interesting to me, anyway. In other news... *smashes mirror with a rock... and hopefully the face of whoever was coming through it*
Why wouldn't they take it unquestioningly?
It's a patriarchy. I don't understand why people keep being shocked at the place of women in Tremont, and their acceptance of it. Its culture is different, that's all. What I do wonder is how the Sairish women feel about it. If the father's read the ceremony straight out of the Law, then it must be the same ceremony in Sairland. The women there are a bit more liberated.
There is something I am curious to know. Do the Inchari and Nijan follow the same gods, or do they have their own?
When you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth. -Arthur Conan Doyle
------
It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a grue.
I don't get it either
Western societies in our world were almost as bad--and in some ways worse--just 150 years ago, and in some parts of the world right now. Everyone's acting like Tremont is Gor.
Sairish women have earned a few changes in the ceremony, but that's as far as I know. I haven't been to a Sairish wedding since Ilhovin and Macca's.
The Inchari and Nijan have their own gods. We don't know much about Nijan religion, except that their Emperor is considered sacred. The Inchari have thousands of gods and have just incorporated the Tremontine/Sairish pantheon into their own.
Do their gods
Also have an earthly presence the way the Tremont/Sairland gods do?
When you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth. -Arthur Conan Doyle
------
It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a grue.
the marriage ceremony
No one questioned our basic marriage ceremony much for 500 years. Most people don't really think about the familiar, or even the vows they're taking. Richer or poorer, sickness and in health, yadda yadda, hurry up and get to "man and wife" so we can eat.
ETA: I think I've said elsewhere that it took me a while to get the "Now I lay me down to sleep" prayer. I said the Lord's Prayer for three decades before I really broke it down and thought about what I was praying for when I joined AA/Alanon. I consider myself a thoughtful person, too. People go along to get along, and often don't think about things they recite from memory or have heard from childhood--prayers, the Pledge of Allegiance, and so on.
Now I lay me down to sleep...
I was shocked the first time I heard "if I should die before I wake." What??? KIDS say that? My mom used a different version:
Now I lay me down to sleep,
I pray the Lord my soul to keep.
See me safely through the night
And wake me with the morning light.
A much better prayer, if you ask me.
And because I feel like sharing, one of my chickens, Camilla, died today
She had an enormous tumor on her bottom for the last 6 months or so, and it finally killed her.
Life... is like a grapefruit. It's orange and squishy, and has a few pips in it, and some folks have half a one for breakfast.
sorry about your chook
I miss mine every time I throw out kitchen scraps. I always look at them and think, oh, leftover stew! The chickies will love this! And then I remember we don't have them any more.
Actually
I've always been one of those that actually put apart all the prayers and what the priests say; and that's the reason I actually stopped going to church (here being Catholic). All the misogynistic ideas and so on... You say you believe in the only Holy Church, that only One Christening can lead to salvation... Priests say that the only way to salvation is through Christening and loving Jesus... And so on... And I just could not take it anymore and went "OK, if all the people that are not Christian are going to be damned, then I'm going down with them".
I'm always saying that I wanted too much to be a good Christian and that led me to being a heretic.
Because why not?! #Oh, look, a webcomic!#
More wild speculation.
So. He was thirsty and hungy, and now he's asleep.
I'm just sayin'.
When you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth. -Arthur Conan Doyle
------
It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a grue.
What are you getting at?
All I can think of is "maybe he has diabetes," which seems unlikely
Clare K. R. Miller, author of Chatoyant College
http://clarekrmiller.digitalnovelists.com
I am getting at
The trusted one of Temmin's birth prophecy.
Some thought it might have referred to Fen. I am not one of them, but thought I'd throw it out there.
When you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth. -Arthur Conan Doyle
------
It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a grue.
Ohh
Clearly I have failed to properly memorize the prophecy
Clare K. R. Miller, author of Chatoyant College
http://clarekrmiller.digitalnovelists.com
OH dear...
Somehow predictable that it would happen sooner than later, but right on their wedding night? What a bastard Harsin is.
Now, I wouldn't be surprised if the rings are indeed a "gift" (or rather: curse) from Harsin, but the one who'll step through the mirror is Connin. Of course, I wouldn't be surprised only because I actually hope for such a plot-twist
of all the...
of all the times to interrupt something precious and sacred!!!!!!!
That is beyond disgusting. That got me to thinking that the timing was beyond simply being a basterd.
I'm guessing Harsin is wanting Teacher to put a mark on her for future purposes. Well i guess that's still a basterdly reason...
Huh! The only person who can
Huh! The only person who can make the anti-pregnancy marks is the Traveler Queen, Maeb. The Teacher can't do it. It's still a good idea, though! It could be something similar, like Connin activating the mirror for Maeb so she can cross and put the mark on Arta.
Supreme Minister of All Livestock
"Use, do not abuse. Neither abstinence nor excess renders man happy." - Voltaire
I thought...
that Maeb could do the mirror trick herself, but maybe I am wrong.
Doubt it.
Manipulating objects is Men's magic. Maeb can only affect living things. Remember, Teacher needed Maeb to make the books, or they wouldn't affect the reader the way they do, and she needed Teacher to bind the enchantment to an inanimate object.
When you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth. -Arthur Conan Doyle
------
It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a grue.
I wonder
If the rings knocking them both out was another one of Teacher's actions.
Harsin: Teacher enchant this ring to match this enchanted ring.
Teacher : (sigh) As you wish
later
Harsin: Pagg's Balls teacher what did you do?
Teacher: Exactly what you told me to do.
Harsin: Well take the enchantment off from her ring.
Teacher: I can't do that without doing the same to his ring too.
Harsin : Why not??
Teacher: You said to enchant them to match so now they must match in all ways.
Harsin: But I don't want a sex partner who is unresponsive, Bah take my back to my chambers now.
Is just my guess of how Teacher might expect this to go. If he has been stretching things to suit his own feelings on the matter.
Anything that kills your inner-song is always going to be bad for you. - Personal Wisdom
Wait wait guys ! I just
Wait wait guys ! I just thought of something : we saw how careful Harsin is about his mistresses and potential pregnancies, so... don't you think that he would have managed to get Arta a mark before rsisking it, especially after Twenna and the baby-to-be? Unless I'm missing something here... What do you think ?
subtext?
subtext?
It's supposed to be a challenge, that's why they call it a shortcut. If it was easy it would just be the way.
--Road Trip
"Funny. Terrible, but funny." (that's typically my aim)
-NorthwoodsMan
hehe...
that's awesome!
Well, unless he's gonna have
Well, unless he's gonna have her under some spell that causes amensia and then any pregnancy following the wedding night would automatically be attributed to unsuspicious Fen.
Then again, maybe she can't have kids at all. Judging from what was mentioned in the chapter, her and Fen didn't exactly live a life of abstinence before marriage ...
New topic for
New topic for speculation/interrogating Meilin: birth control methods in-story!
Aside from abstinence and Maeb's magic, some form of rhythm method seems obvious. Hormone-based control or IUDs is *very* unlikely. The Sisters of Venna are aware of abortifacents, but I don't see that as being something regularly available to common women. Hmm... lambskin or similar condoms are probably possible, given the tech base, but I dunno how likely they are...
Supreme Minister of All Livestock
"Use, do not abuse. Neither abstinence nor excess renders man happy." - Voltaire
Even the ancient Greeks had
Even the ancient Greeks had rudimentary IUD's...just stones shoved up in there.
It's supposed to be a challenge, that's why they call it a shortcut. If it was easy it would just be the way.
--Road Trip
"Funny. Terrible, but funny." (that's typically my aim)
-NorthwoodsMan
:(
My vagina just did a high pitched cartoon scream.
When you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth. -Arthur Conan Doyle
------
It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a grue.
Please tell me you're making
Please tell me you're making that up.
Supreme Minister of All Livestock
"Use, do not abuse. Neither abstinence nor excess renders man happy." - Voltaire
I'm making that up.
I'm making that up.
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ok, not really. hope you felt better for a moment.
It's supposed to be a challenge, that's why they call it a shortcut. If it was easy it would just be the way.
--Road Trip
"Funny. Terrible, but funny." (that's typically my aim)
-NorthwoodsMan
The scream was almost
as loud as the one that happened when I found out that Lysol used to be commonly marketed as a feminine douche.
When you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth. -Arthur Conan Doyle
------
It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a grue.
in fairness
http://medgadget.com/archives/2005/09/the_rape_trap.html
for the guys out there.
It's supposed to be a challenge, that's why they call it a shortcut. If it was easy it would just be the way.
--Road Trip
"Funny. Terrible, but funny." (that's typically my aim)
-NorthwoodsMan
*hums*
Vagina Denatata
What a wonderful phrase.
It's a penis free
girl cavity...
Hey man. If you shouldn't have been sticking it in there to begin with...
Not as bad as the Lysol, imo.
When you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth. -Arthur Conan Doyle
------
It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a grue.
Can't type
Laughing too hard
Thanks for my favourite Queen Of Wands memory.
Anything that kills your inner-song is always going to be bad for you. - Personal Wisdom
While I understand the need in some countries...
that is the most horrifying concept there is. I don't know why it is, but I have no problem with film violence, and it really doesn't bother me at all....unless it is applied to male genitalia. I am entirely unable to stomach that for some reason. There was a movie about this, somewhat indirectly...I think it was called "Teeth". I never saw it, because I had such a hard time watching the trailer (and it looked like a really stupid movie, to boot).
it is a dumb movie.
it is a dumb movie.
It's supposed to be a challenge, that's why they call it a shortcut. If it was easy it would just be the way.
--Road Trip
"Funny. Terrible, but funny." (that's typically my aim)
-NorthwoodsMan
it looks rather unpleasant
Imagine if somebody happened to forget about that and attempt consensual sex...imagine the PAIN
(I know, it´d hurt regardless of how consensual it is, but in case of rape I just don´t give damn)
This of course reminds me...
of Snow Crash.
When you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth. -Arthur Conan Doyle
------
It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a grue.
@TheBoy:
My first reaction: Squeal of glee. Righeous! I really don't have a problem with the Rapex device. Honest. Except that, probably, in a gang rape situation, which is also very common in South Africa, the repercussions on the woman would be very very bad.
Heterosexuality is not normal, it's just common. --Dorothy Parker
I worry about the potential
I worry about the potential for misuse--combined with seduction.
plus, there's a simple workaround--finger first.
It's supposed to be a challenge, that's why they call it a shortcut. If it was easy it would just be the way.
--Road Trip
"Funny. Terrible, but funny." (that's typically my aim)
-NorthwoodsMan
I have a huge-ass problem...
... with that device. Consider: high HIV prevalence rates and a device that puts numerous wounds into a blood-engorged penis while being inside another person's vagina, in a situation that makes lesions to the female genitals not all that unlikely, either.
Bad idea, if you ask me, and that's ignoring the gang rape dynamic where some members of the gang might be inclined to exact revenge for the guy who got caught in this device.
MSN encarta on IUDs...
"This form of birth control was invented 3,000 years ago when desert peoples put smooth pebbles in the uterus of a camel to prevent it from getting pregnant on treks across the desert. Ancient Greek physician Hippocrates later suggested this method for women."
Oh My God
Life... is like a grapefruit. It's orange and squishy, and has a few pips in it, and some folks have half a one for breakfast.
Herbal Birth Controll
our homo-sapient cave dwelling ancestors knew of herbs that could help prevent pregnancies.
Such as Golden thread & antelope sage, used together they are very good a keeping most pregnancies at bay if used daily. For that matter Black Cohosh, used in large dosages daily can do the same. Just remember to use red clover leaf during menstrual flow.
Given the tech level & how dangerous pregnancy could be in a society like that, I'm sure that to keep women alive if past pregnancies have proven too dangerous such herbs would have been available.
Anything that kills your inner-song is always going to be bad for you. - Personal Wisdom
Out of curiosity, does anyone
Out of curiosity, does anyone know how those herbs work as birth control? I mean, do they somehow suppress ovulation or interfere with fertilization like hormonal methods, or are they abortifacents such that taking them regularly means you have an "invisible" miscarriage, or what?
I wonder how their efficacy and side-effects compare to various modern methods.
Supreme Minister of All Livestock
"Use, do not abuse. Neither abstinence nor excess renders man happy." - Voltaire
Wikipedia fail.
Wikipedia says nothing about the first two being used as contraception, but both articles are stubs. Net says Navajo women used the antelope sage, but nothing about its effectiveness or how it might work.
The third one says it was used as an abortifacient, but is not clear about why it works. This article says it induces contractions, causing a miscarriage.
When you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth. -Arthur Conan Doyle
------
It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a grue.
google fail...
All I could find on any of the three is current uses.
PETA = People Eating Tasty Animals
A failure to plan on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part.
Lemme
pull out the giant pharmacotherapeutics book I have and I'll figure it out for ya
. I'll just edit this post when I find it . ..
I have said it before.
For a community so small, we have so many experts in so many useful fields here.
Also, I figured it was okay to posts since it's been several hours since you went to look. You'll just have to update us in a new reply. Sorry about forcing you to take an extra point. Please forgive me.
When you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth. -Arthur Conan Doyle
------
It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a grue.
point whores anon...
Yes, because we all hate it soo much when have to create an extra post...
PETA = People Eating Tasty Animals
A failure to plan on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part.
Black Cohosh
& Golden thread both cause the body to produce huge amounts of oestrogen, much like many modern b.c. pills. taken three out of 4 weeks followed by the fourth week on clover leaf to allow the body to bleed & be cleansed. it is as effective as our modern pills.
Antelope sage works along the same lines as the morning after pill. If you are in the first stages of a pregnancy it will cause a spontaneous miscarriage that does no harm to the body or the reproductive system of a woman. Best way to use it is daily until you want to try and conceive. then simply stop taking it.
Anything that kills your inner-song is always going to be bad for you. - Personal Wisdom
Makes sense, except...
Black Cohosh doesn't prevent the body from bleeding, it makes you bleed more. I know wikipedia's not the be-all and end-all of information sources, but other sources I looked at also don't mention anything about its effectiveness as a hormonal birth control, only as an abortifacient.
Unless there's been a double-blind study done on it, I can't take your word for it.
When you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth. -Arthur Conan Doyle
------
It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a grue.
Black Cohosh
only makes you bleed more when you stop taking it. As long as you are taking it you don't bleed at all. That's why you need to take it three weeks on & one week off.
Anything that kills your inner-song is always going to be bad for you. - Personal Wisdom
You've gotten
some misinformation then. Every website I have looked at says it thins the blood, the way aspirin would, and this is supported by references to a untested use for it being to lower blood pressure. Many of them explicitly say that this would cause you to bleed more, not less.
ETA: I'm dense. Of course you wouldn't menstruate if it functions like birth control. Menstruating /= bleeding.
When you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth. -Arthur Conan Doyle
------
It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a grue.
I know
...that I'm not supposed to take either blue or black cohosh because I'm on blood thinners.
Must not
Try & communicate while medicated.
What I meant is that your monthlies will be a lot bloodier because of using the stuff. I use it to help me with menopausal symptoms, yes it thins the blood, but with a mild heart murmur & a bit of arrhythmia this is not a bad thing for me. However my monthlies are huge because of the stuff.
Anything that kills your inner-song is always going to be bad for you. - Personal Wisdom
Gah.
Mine are already a messy affair. My sympathies.
When you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth. -Arthur Conan Doyle
------
It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a grue.
So sorry
Hate the messy things, but at least with the Cohosh almost all my bleeding happens within the first 2 days. It just all wants out at the exact same time.
Oh well the herb keeps my skin supple, & unlike conventional Estrogen replacement Therapy It has not been linked to breast cancer. Because the herb forces your body to create it's own estrogen instead of flooding it with man made estrogen that stores in your glands & body fat.
Anything that kills your inner-song is always going to be bad for you. - Personal Wisdom
Replied below
Post is here.
When you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth. -Arthur Conan Doyle
------
It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a grue.
Remember
I'm almost certain that it's Harsin's doing, what with the involvement of Winmer and such what, but what no one has mentioned is that Harsin spotted Temmin with Arta at that last dance and has been asking questions about her, so he must've had something planned for awhile, or at least had her on his mind for awhile.
Also, everyone's been questioning Arta's actions, but I mean they've had a long day. Been up all day, danced a full set, had to talk to all these other people, plus the emotional exhaustion that must've been involved. I doubt I'd have questioned it either, especially if he's the type who blacks out when drunk.
Aye, Winmer was ordered by
Aye, Winmer was ordered by Harsin to get some information about Arta discreetly, and it was said in a way that implied this was how Winmer usually had to it if Harsin couldn´t keep it in his pants.
Can a mirror be broken?
I mean, yes, it can be broken... but what if they broke it while somebody was using it as a portal? Would the "traveler" die, or get stuck, or something? Or the mirror just wouldn't break?
Never give a sword to a man who cannot dance.
I imagine they would probably
I imagine they would probably just come out of the largest shard, since the shards themselves would still be reflective surfaces suitable for travelling through.
I'm no end table, I'm a nightstand.
Seconded
Remember the tiny mirror in the prologue? If Teacher and Connin are able to travel through a mirror that small at the very beginning of the book (but relatively close to the time we are at in this chapter), then shouldn't they be able to travel through a shard?
"Thunder only happens when it's raining.
Players only love you when they're playing.
Say... Women... They will come and they will go.
When the rain washes you clean you'll know."
I agree...
with Vandole. On top of that, I'm not sure if the mirror could break, if something was passing through it. Perhaps you could just put your hand or breaking implement through to the other side. I wonder if the passage temporarily changes the properties of the mirror... It seemed as though it turned to liquid or something like liquid when someone was passing through.
jumping on the bandwagon
I didn´t really suspect the rings were really important until the mirror part. Now I really hate Harsin
I just couldn't believe that
I just couldn't believe that chapter ended that way! I suspected something fishy with the rings, but the chapter progressed, and then wham!
I's sad...
Noooo!
And to think, he could have gotten away with it if he'd simply settled his mind on what they'd already decided upon, rather than let society shame him!!
Not 100% safe
reply to this post above.
Since long-term studies haven't been done on it, there's no certainty. The herb doesn't just affect estrogen, and any time you use any kind of drug (and by drug I mean the legal definition...I can't help but feel that by mentioning the word "legal" I'll cause TB to materialize out of thin air like some fairy godlawyer) there are risks, even with an herb that's been used for centuries by Native Americans. It's entirely possible you know this already, and I may be preaching to the choir, but the unregulated nature of "all natural" drugs and supplements in our country is a hot button issue for me, especially with the emphasis one going green and getting back to nature. People are gullible, and most of them (not implying you are one by any means, not if your posts here are any measure) are happy to live in ignorance rather than put in the effort to educate themselves.
When you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth. -Arthur Conan Doyle
------
It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a grue.
hey, fuck you
I ain't no fuckin' fairy.
(I'm actually not too clear on FDA law. Totally not my area of expertise.)
It's supposed to be a challenge, that's why they call it a shortcut. If it was easy it would just be the way.
--Road Trip
"Funny. Terrible, but funny." (that's typically my aim)
-NorthwoodsMan
According to Wikipedia
In the United States, the Federal Food, Drug, and Cosmetic Act definition of "drug" includes "articles intended for use in the diagnosis, cure, mitigation, treatment, or prevention of disease in man or other animals" and "articles (other than food) intended to affect the structure or any function of the body of man or other animals."
And now you know. (Man, I was so upset when Paul Harvey died and I told my friends and they went, "Who?")
When you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth. -Arthur Conan Doyle
------
It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a grue.
questionalbe...
There's your first problem, you're going by a wiki...
PETA = People Eating Tasty Animals
A failure to plan on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part.
Never mind wiki
Or legal definitions. I'm not advocating that anyone run out & start using what works for me. I trust my herbalist & my holistic healers & not a one of us recommends that people start taking things willy nilly. We (by this I mean my herbalist, myself, & my holistic healer all)
rather insist that people do a lot of research before that start taking any thing even what the modern doctor prescribes & then make your decisions from an informed point of view.
I was merely answering a question about herbal forms of birth control.
But I do hope that you are not knocking Native Herbal Healing Wisdom that has been around for centuries. Herbal knowledge would not have been kept & expanded on if it did not work. & the only reasons the FDA frowns on herbs is because (a) they can not regulate them in such a way that the drug companies can reap exclusive benefits from them. & (b) too many people are not doing the research needed to keep themselves safe from themselves. Overzealousness will always cause more harm than good. I assure you that I have & use an herbal PDR that is larger & more comprehensive than most conventional PDR's. Not all drugs work the same for everyone, just as not all herbs will either. We would not give a blood thinner to a haemophiliac, nor would we give a clotting agent to stroke victims. A true herbalist studies every bit as long & hard as a cardiologist. Nothing is given willy nilly I assure you.
But I'll remind you that we would not have Aspirin if it were not for herbalism. Acetalsalisilic acid (aka aspirin) comes from white willow bark which was & has been used for mild pain relief for centuries. It's been found in burial sites that date back to the first homosapiens.
But again I was only answering a story thread question about herbal birth control.
Anything that kills your inner-song is always going to be bad for you. - Personal Wisdom
I understand
And I did say in my post I was pretty sure you weren't included in my generalizations. Only pretty sure since i don't actually know you, and thus could never assume anything completely one way or another.
I am very glad you've found some level-headed people to consult with. There are many "herbalists" who are just trying to take people for a ride or have no clue what they're talking about themselves. People who advocate for things like dolphin assisted birthing and chiropractors who treat children.
That is exactly the sort of person I was referring to with my post, and I blame the FDAs lack of regulation of herbal supplements as the reason for the behavior, not the other way around. Maybe it's a cycle, I don't know. Since herbal supplements are available over the counter people think that is synonymous with "safe", that if there was anything bad that could happen the item would be regulated. Clearly that is not the case when something like Black Cohosh, which functions very much like a manufactured drug that you need a prescription to get, is available over-the-counter. It's an even bigger problem when that herb can be dangerous if it's not in a pure form. If it's cut with something or combined with something, turned it into a pill and sold as Black Cohosh, it could be causing serious harm, and the FDA looks the other way.
As far as native herbal wisdom goes, I know they take this stuff because it performs the function it says it does, more often than not (not always, look at the number of ancient chinese concoctions that don't do a damn thing) but the way tribal religious mentality works, things that happen that are bad or cause death are not attributed to the medicine, when the medicine may be what is causing it. Don't misunderstand my position, I'm Native American, and if I desired to have a relationship of any kind with my biological father (I don't), I am eligible for official status and would be tax exempt in the United States. I identify with it strongly enough that if White and Native American appear on a demographics survey, I check 'other'. But I also know that just because it's old doesn't mean it's safe or accurate. Certain Native tribes (none in the US, I think, but I can't remember if this is the Australian Aborigines or someone else) believe that death is not part of the natural order, and if anyone dies it is because someone placed a curse on them.
When you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth. -Arthur Conan Doyle
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It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a grue.
Well
But I do hope that you are not knocking Native Herbal Healing Wisdom that has been around for centuries. Herbal knowledge would not have been kept & expanded on if it did not work. & the only reasons the FDA frowns on herbs is because (a) they can not regulate them in such a way that the drug companies can reap exclusive benefits from them. & (b) too many people are not doing the research needed to keep themselves safe from themselves.
But I'll remind you that we would not have Aspirin if it were not for herbalism. Acetalsalisilic acid (aka aspirin) comes from white willow bark which was & has been used for mild pain relief for centuries. It's been found in burial sites that date back to the first homosapiens.
Little bit of a nerve hit here. Herbs that have been *proven* to work in relatively the same way for a majority of people become approved by the FDA to be considered to be actual drugs and medications. You mentioned aspirin, and foxglove is another one. There are others. Contrary to popular belief, the FDA is not buddy-buddy with the drug companies and seeking to get them more money. If they were, there would be *far* more new drugs approved each year and it wouldn't take billions of dollars and hundreds of trials to get a drug to market.
You're right in that it's hard to regulate the content of herbal drugs to ensure that every dose is the same, that's why it's pretty much a 'take at your own risk' kind of thing in most instances. I respect that you have done your own thorough research and work with experts in those fields for your own personal use of herbal products, but please don't assume that the FDA is only there to get drug companies money and exclusive production benefits.
And, I got slammed with formulary building from work and haven't found the right entry in my pharmacological book of doom for the others . . .
But I'm getting there . . .
Wait, what's the problem?
There are several ways Wikipedia is more accurate than any encyclopedia ever could be, not the least of which is the fact that any printed encyclopedia is several years out of date by the time it's available to the consumer.
There have been studies done on how long it takes for an error on Wikipedia to be corrected and the overall accuracy of various types of articles, and if you look at the talk pages you will see that experts on the topic weigh in on certain types of content (like, say, mathematicians hanging out at formula and theory pages, go figure) with a great deal of regularity.
That being said, I agree that it should not be used as a source for a research project. Why? Because you're never supposed to use an encyclopedia of any kind as a source for a research project. A starting point, yes, source, no.
If a person can not be bothered to check the citations of information contained on Wikipedia, or to do their own fact checking if none is provided, or take the information with a grain of salt if they can't be bothered, that is not a failing of Wikipedia, it's a failing of the person reading it. The citation for the particular section I quoted is a PDF on the stated act from the FDA's website. I'd say that's a pretty damn reliable piece of information.
If my post sounded terse, it was meant to be. You hit a nerve and needed to be set straight, hooligan.
When you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth. -Arthur Conan Doyle
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It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a grue.
Cheerios is a drug!
Seriously. General Mills appears to believe it can cure (or block? I'm confused) cancer. The FDA is alarmed and is considering seizing the product.
On the local front, we had reports at work today of people beasting Cheerios without milk. I think we may be on the verge of a social epidemic, here...
Wow! Sarcasm! That's original!
i had thought it was
i had thought it was cholesterol.
It's supposed to be a challenge, that's why they call it a shortcut. If it was easy it would just be the way.
--Road Trip
"Funny. Terrible, but funny." (that's typically my aim)
-NorthwoodsMan
That, too
but they make some claims about reducing the risk of cancer, and specify stomach or colon cancer, I believe. And "cure for cancer" played better to my OP than "reduces cholesterol by 4%"
Wow! Sarcasm! That's original!
Speaking of stupid
Speaking of stupid advertising, how about the frosted mini-wheats ads talking about how awesomely they help you focus...based on a study comparing FMW's for breakfast to NO breakfast.
Whoop-de-shit.
It's supposed to be a challenge, that's why they call it a shortcut. If it was easy it would just be the way.
--Road Trip
"Funny. Terrible, but funny." (that's typically my aim)
-NorthwoodsMan
What's wrong with that?
If you aren't allergic to the ingredients in Cheerios, and aren't neglecting the other parts of a well balanced diet, I don't see any harm in eating them.
It bothers me a little that General Mills is trying to make a buck off it and facilitating the dissemination of misinformation, but I don't see what's wrong with eating a lot of Cheerios.
When you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth. -Arthur Conan Doyle
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It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a grue.
*big sigh*
Raigne, are you taking me seriously?
Wow! Sarcasm! That's original!
wiki fail...
Ya, I think someone needs some more language lessons in sarcasm...
PETA = People Eating Tasty Animals
A failure to plan on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part.
In fairness, such subtleties
In fairness, such subtleties are difficult to discern on the interwebs.
It's supposed to be a challenge, that's why they call it a shortcut. If it was easy it would just be the way.
--Road Trip
"Funny. Terrible, but funny." (that's typically my aim)
-NorthwoodsMan
IAWTC.
Deadpan humor sounds like joy, sorrow, anxiety and everything else on the internet. There is nothing wrong with my sense of humor and I would totally tell the lot of you to kiss my ass if I could be sure it wouldn't be misconstrued as an invitation.
When you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth. -Arthur Conan Doyle
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It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a grue.
don't do that...
It's not nice to tease...
PETA = People Eating Tasty Animals
A failure to plan on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part.
Too bad.
Teasing is all I do
When you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth. -Arthur Conan Doyle
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It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a grue.
Around here? Good luck...
... with that. In fact, I'd say that it's a safe bet that it will be construed (mis- or otherwise) as an invitation by quite a few people, and at least one of them will post something to that effect.
Since when are you fair?
And my comeback was mostly because I expect certain regulars to know better
Wow! Sarcasm! That's original!
I'm more swedish than
I'm more swedish than anything else. I sunburn seriously. I've always been fair.
It's supposed to be a challenge, that's why they call it a shortcut. If it was easy it would just be the way.
--Road Trip
"Funny. Terrible, but funny." (that's typically my aim)
-NorthwoodsMan
I guess I can forgive your confusion.
I haven't really been here that long. I just post a lot. Sometimes you are serious, sometimes you are not. I haven't figured out which is which yet.
Though, what does it say about me when I don't bat an eyelash when someone says, "Cheerios are a drug." I'm either apathetic or worldly enough for that not to be strange. I dunno which.
Also, in approximately 30 points I'll be at the top of the totem pole.
When you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth. -Arthur Conan Doyle
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It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a grue.
Sigh
Raigne I apologise we both seem to have touched off buttons on each other. There are a lot of quacks out there in every field of human need. Sadly medicine seems to attract for more than it's fair share.
Most N.A tribal healers turn away from herbs that kill more than help. While it's true that faith / ritual healing techniques rarely change no matter what. The herbs we tend to be very careful about. We actually do regulate that ourselves during inter-tribal convocations & a few dedicated chat sites. Yes, I'm Native myself. & So proud of it I could burst. Although I too refuse the tax exemption & special government dole. (long story, reads like a bad dime novel at best)
I have a problem asking the US government to get any bigger or take more control. Most reservations have very little to no western health centers, What few they have are woefully understaffed, out of date, & under supplied. Herbs are vital to keeping many Natives alive. More regulation by the FDA means less herbs available to Natives who honestly are the last to get anything except the short end of the stick.
I'm a crisis counsellor for my tribe & my heart is often left bleeding knowing that the person I'm talking to just needs good food, & the right meds & instead will die far too soon because due to the reservation system & other things beyond his or her control he or she will not get either.
For your heartaches I grieve with thee, & I shall sing for you & offer up sacred smoke.
Anything that kills your inner-song is always going to be bad for you. - Personal Wisdom
Nothing to apologize for.
I am a very frank speaker and it's difficult for me to convey it as frank and not hostile online, and I was trying very, very hard not to offend you. It's very difficult to get me riled up about anything (I've gotten far too lazy to waste the energy on that), and you have yet to say anything that's gotten even close to that kind of reaction. So I should be apologizing to you. It's something I should start putting as a disclaimer when I post about controversial issues, I think, though it's not going to do much if someone's very sensitive. I try to be tactful, but often fail horribly.
When you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth. -Arthur Conan Doyle
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It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a grue.
Frank I can
Frank I can deal with. I like straight shooters. For the record I only viewed your response as being potentially volatile, I wanted to answer your concerns while trying to understand where you were coming from & letting you see where I come from.
Now that I know you shoot from the hip, I can deal with that with ease. I too tend to speak my mind. A trait that I should remember to curb when my meds for migraines make me too loopy be comprehensible.
And you really should see my Herbal PDR the thing is as heavy as a sledge hammer, It names the herbs, traditional uses, best actual uses, scientific analysis, indications, & interactions, dosing, preparations, harvesting techniques & a lot more.
Anything that kills your inner-song is always going to be bad for you. - Personal Wisdom
my two cents
Ah! The next time something like this comes up, I encourage you to mention the massive-lore-tome-with-scientific-analysis in your response from the get go. Those of us who are a mite skeptical at times appreciate references, because it lets us know that "hey, someone bothered to research this to figure out if it applies beyond an individual's anecdote". My feeling about a lot of regular-and-often-questioning posters here is that we believe people's anecdotes as applies to that individual, but we're more reassured by references.
Which is essentially the short version of the conversation that you & Raigne just had :wry:
What's the title of your herbal book? Is it available on sites like amazon or ebay?
Supreme Minister of All Livestock
"Use, do not abuse. Neither abstinence nor excess renders man happy." - Voltaire
Like she said
it's the herbal PDR (amazon link, for your convenience). PDR stands for Physician's Desk Reference, which is the go-to manual on medications and doses, among other things, and I am guessing there is a manual specifically for herbs. I actually tried to look up Black Cohosh on the PDR website, and its entry was less than helpful. They are a membership site, though.
The books are pricey, but worth it.
When you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth. -Arthur Conan Doyle
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It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a grue.
I am oblivious. Frequently.
I am oblivious. Frequently. Thank you for the clue-by-four =)
Supreme Minister of All Livestock
"Use, do not abuse. Neither abstinence nor excess renders man happy." - Voltaire
I'll try to remember
To do that. But as I said, I was loopy with medications that do take a long time to leave my particular system. My connotative skills were no where near balanced. For future reference... *I* do not talk about any herbs or treatments that I haven't researched till my brain bleeds. If I do it's always with a caveat. Just a quirk of mine.
Anything that kills your inner-song is always going to be bad for you. - Personal Wisdom
duly noted!
duly noted!
Supreme Minister of All Livestock
"Use, do not abuse. Neither abstinence nor excess renders man happy." - Voltaire
totem...
You may move up, but you'll still only be on the second rung. "MH" is the top of the pole...
PETA = People Eating Tasty Animals
A failure to plan on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part.
Damn.
Forgot about that one. Although, arguably MH transcends the totem pole altogether. Eh? Eh? No? *sigh*
When you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth. -Arthur Conan Doyle
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It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a grue.
We don't know yet. It's not
We don't know yet. It's not on the listing of achievable achievements, but the classification still exists.
Then again, maybe she likes being on top of the poll...
PETA = People Eating Tasty Animals
A failure to plan on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part.
But...
to be on top of the poll people would have to vote for her.
Joke fail, due to spelling. *shakes head sadly*
When you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth. -Arthur Conan Doyle
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It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a grue.
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